Mozart Requiem in (((HUGE))) church

[joelpatterson]

Fifty feet to the ceiling if it's a centimeter, and a lovely barrelled vault to boot, so you're getting a great, lingering reverb tail that just hangs there in the air.

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Lacrimosa_Mozart Requiem.mp3

Mostly, this is two wide CAD Trion 7000's, the double ribbon, one of the every-so-often brilliant pieces they make, every so often. (With my own custom patented 'take off the rice-paper' mod!) I love the way ribbons are the most honest microphone, really, they don't hype the sound, everything's level-headed and true.

For sounds like a timpani's blast echoing around the room, they are the best, giving you a real-time reading on the density and its prevalence while still hearing everything else going on at the same time.

Funny thing-- well, not funny at all-- there's alot of yearly "Memorial Scholarship Concerts" around me, they're always commemorating a trumpet player who died young, and these raise money for a music major going to college. It's strange how these are always excellent shows, joyful and lively-- only they wouldn't be happening without some horrible tragedy to kick them off. Mortality, requia, I guess when you think about it music is the best way to distill all that emotion into a visible, tangible form.

[Ibvee]

Nice stuff!
is it just a stereo pair?? What was the exact setup?

A bit of a noob when it comes to recording classical stuff. But personally I like to hear a bit more seperation between the choir and the orchestra.

[jdtrbn]

I know this piece inside out (like a lot of other people) .
The reverb in indeed huge. That with the ribbons make quite a dark sound. I wonder how it would have sounded if miced closer with brighter mics, but that's just speculation. Still, now the violin sounds just right.

Thanks, it was a pleasure.

PS. What is the church called?

[d_fu]

May I ask whether you you listen to your mixes on good headphones once in a while? There's some sound from the extreme left and right, but most of it apears to focus in the centre.
What else did you use apart from the CADs?

[Corran]

Wow, nice sounding place! The one time I was able to record in a huge church it was a quicky reference thing that I was doing because I played in the orchestra. They didn't tell me though it was a giant gothic cathedral, just "a church" - so I brought a pair of omnis. Not the best direct-to-reverb ratio, but still a neat recording!

I don't have headphones handy so I don't know about the imaging. That's tough in that kinda place I'd say.

[jnorman]

pretty nice, joel - thanks for posting it. i might have miced a little closer, and would probably have tried the ribbon pair in blumlein. i would also add a bit of high end EQ to brighten it a tad, but overall, a fine job on a wonderful piece of music. i know you had fun doing it, and i am sure your client(s) loved it.

[joelpatterson]

Thanks for the kind words! The church is called the Sacred Heart-St. Francis DeSales Catholic Church, it's in Bennington, Vermont, and just a few years ago they did one of these incredible interior make-overs, re-plasted/re-painted, the works.

All my mics were in a more-or-less line across the front of the front pews-- the orchestra sat in between there and the stage, where the chorus (60 people maybe?) were splayed out on risers. Everyone was jammed together, essentially, soloists front and center. I do kinda always feel like these "geometries" that the music director establishes are going to determine how it turns out. If there were ways to suspend mics, floating out in mid-air, untethered to anything, that would be great, I'd have them hovering somewhat closer... but whatever.

Main pair were Oktava MK-012's in ORTF over the conductor's head, about halfway to the edges were a set of Earthworks QTC-30's, and then the fabled 7000's way to the sides. Sytek pres. Mixdown, as always, was a torturous, mind-bending exercise: now it's too sibilant, now it's too muted, now the reverb sounds 'cardboardy,' now it's all just too 'beige'... I don't know how you guys do it, but for me I just keep twidling with it until it starts to 'breathe with life,' and then hopefully at that point I leave well enough alone.

I think overall you could say here is the formula: three sets of mics inevitably deliver just too much. Certain bands of frequencies suffer from overload, so you need to selectively carve out EQ notches and to sidechain compressors to dampen those overbeating hearts, bleed away some of the pressure.

But then the human factor is always the primary thing: the conductor's mother recently passed away. There is truly no greater "family" than a crowd of musicians all gathered together. There's a whole world of silent, understood communication with people who've known each other forever and feel each other's pain.

[MichaelPatrick]

Joel, I concur with the positive responses you're getting. Very nice.

How were the mics arrayed? Did you just leave the basket with no cloth? That'll make them a bit dangerous if HVAC starts blowing on them, but the ribbons didn't crash in this clip.

I wonder if they are 1.8 micron or 2.5, etc. If they are a heavier ribbon they sound pretty good, but there is some IM distortion. Dual ribbons can do that with sounds that aren't right on axis, but it may just be my ears.

[Larry Elliott]

Joel

Do you have a picture of the space.

Wonderful sound

[d_fu]

Joel,

How do you monitor? How far and how far apart have you placed your monitors? Do you ever put on cans in the process? Do you look at your recordings with a goniometer?
It's not the first time I notice something of a "pile up in the middle" (as opposed to the "hole in the middle") in one of Joel's recordings, hence my question about his monitoring. Finding the right amount of stereo spread isn't easy, esp. when working with spots. IMHO some more would help here.



Daniel

[joelpatterson]

This somehow makes it look smaller than it really is, the tips of the tower spires are probably eighty feet high. When you're inside, the place seems immense.

The 7000's-- I did remove the blast-protection rice papers that are glued onto the whole motor assembly, so the ribbons are just floating there, in the basket. Not sure of the technical specs-- but overall, they seem pretty robust, although I've no doubt a good gust of wind would rend them completely.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Obviously, this is nothing personal ...

Daniel, have you ever really wanted to hear what a person was going to say after they start out like this: "Don't take this personally, but..." ?

I think you know it is always personal when you are addressing a person.

I also think that you want to be taken to heart by that person.

If you do want to be heard, it is best to put yourself in the their shoes first, and then write your words truthfully, but also with great care as you would write to yourself.

[BrianHanke]

Wonderful recording Joel! I'm always impressed by the originality of the sound you achieve. You really found a way to accentuate the dark, gothic aspects of Mozart without going over the deep end. I think we sometimes forget these days that not everything has to sound homogenized and "professional." To perform or record these great masterworks in a bland, neutral way can downplay their often revolutionary and sometimes discomfiting nature.

Also, a little off topic: I'm originally from Vermont and I used to make the trip down to Bennington College for lessons when I was a kid. I never got a chance to visit this church though...

[BrianHanke]

P.S. Any chance you could upload a sample of the Confutatis? That's my favorite part!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Daniel, have you ever really wanted to hear what a person was going to say after they start out like this: "Don't take this personally, but..." ?
I think you know it is always personal when you are addressing a person.

Michael, I neither started out that way, nor was that what I said. ... My comment was technical ..., not personal...
We seem to have a linguistic issue on the terms "to address" and "personal" here, unfortunately you are aparently unwilling to clear that misunderstanding up in a civilized manner.

I tend to write straightforward, if that appears blunt at times, I can only say it isn't meant that way. Joel does seem to take it personal, however, since he ignored the question.

Does anybody else feel that this sounds a bit monoish?

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

P.S. Any chance you could upload a sample of the Confutatis? That's my favorite part!

Ask and ye shall receive!

http://www.4shared.com/file/96016311...t_Requiem.html

[rumleymusic]

I tend to write straightforward, if that appears blunt at times, I can only say it isn't meant that way. Joel does seem to take it personal, however, since he ignored the question. Doesn't anybody else feel that this sounds quite monoish?

No one should be offended by criticism as long as it is constructive. I always appreciate suggestions for improvement.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm not sure I would have used that spacing with figure 8 mics. The imaging needs some help, though that can probably be fixed. I'm not sure I would have used ribbons either, unless it was supported with more detailed mics; I kind of miss the top end.

Incidentally, I recorded this piece last summer in a live concert with a simple spaced B&K 4006 pair. Tuned out kind of nice.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Michael, I neither started out that way, nor was that what I said. ... My comment was technical ..., not personal...

Daniel, you said "this is nothing personal" and I'm just telling you those words are nonsense if you are addressing a person.

I was hoping you'd get it. Giving up now.

[BrianHanke]

Beautiful, thanks!

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Ask and ye shall receive!

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Confutatis_Mozart Requiem.mp3

[boojum]

I am not going to say yea or nay on the recordings, but I do want to say that we should feel free to post how we think the recording sounds. Any criticism, pro or con, will have a personal dimension to it as the recording was made by a person who staked his rep to post it on the board. And many of the folks on this board are excellent recordists. And to say that one does not like the mic spacing or placing is a long way from saying, "This sounds like shit." or "This is the best Lacrima I have ever heard." We are a collection of people who record and compare out efforts. We can't all love the same woman; we can't all like the same recordings.

I sure hope that d_fu is not discouraged from further commenting and voicing his opinion. He is not Beckmesser in Meistersinger, he is just another one of us with his own honest opinion. So it is for all who have commented. Please, let's not condemn less-than-positive comment. I would hate to see the forum turn into a orgy of adulation.

Cheers

Only listening on MacBook speakers right now.
But I am deeply impressed you pulled it off with so little equipment.
Inspiring!

@boojum
Exactly. And if he doesn't like it, why not say it?

[oshearer]

I think you've captured the mood of this piece perfectly, it is meant to be dark and brooding, and that comes across quite well in your recording. Well done!