Using 2 mics for kick drum at live gigs

[milan lassiter]

Hey all, So this is about a rig for live sound...specifically the kick drum. I'm about to order an API 3124 MB for mic pre's w/ my kit. My question is: is it worth it to designate 2 pre's for the kick, since the kick is the most important thing to mic with the drum kit live? We're not talking large venues...just small bars and the like. But I'm trying to get a great sound rather than volume. I have an Audix D6 for inside the kick and and a Yamaha large diaphragm subkick (the mic that looks like a little drum) for outside the kick. The guy selling it to me says maybe just use the D6 b/c the 2 mic's can cause phase cancellation. Should I go for it w/ the 2 mic's; is it worth it? or should I just use the Audix D6? How do I avoid the phase problems (we don't have a sound man)?

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by milan lassiter

Hey all, So this is about a rig for live sound...specifically the kick drum. I'm about to order an API 3124 MB for mic pre's w/ my kit. My question is: is it worth it to designate 2 pre's for the kick, since the kick is the most important thing to mic with the drum kit live? We're not talking large venues...just small bars and the like. But I'm trying to get a great sound rather than volume. I have an Audix D6 for inside the kick and and a Yamaha large diaphragm subkick (the mic that looks like a little drum) for outside the kick. The guy selling it to me says maybe just use the D6 b/c the 2 mic's can cause phase cancellation. Should I go for it w/ the 2 mic's; is it worth it? or should I just use the Audix D6? How do I avoid the phase problems (we don't have a sound man)?

The acid test is if its worth it for you.

Does it sound how you want it to sound? Do you prefer just the D6? Do you prefer just the Subkik? Do you prefer both mix together? Only way to know is to try.

The way to avoid phase "problems" is to use your ears.... does it sound good? Does it sound better when you move one of the mics? Keep moving it until it sounds the best.


Mic pre's live really are not a big deal. Probably not worth dragging around expensive pre's just to drive a shitty bar PA.

[tINY]

If you want good sound in small clubs, you'd better budget for good PA speakers.



-tINY

[MarkRB]

Not worth it in small venues.

The entire stage resonates with the low end from the drums, bass, guitars, people jumping around etc... Lots of uncontrollable low end. Especially not worth it if you don't have a guy out front to just switch it off.

You should be able to get more than enough sub power from a D6 in the kick to get that punch from a PA.

Or put another way. I never felt a lack of low end using just an in-kick mic on 2000+ shows. Those things are only really useful in the studio, or huge shows where you have some space and a sound man IMHO.

[suedesound]

Agreed, I never have felt the need to use two kick mics doing live sound. I will say that the engineer for The Heavy brought a sub kick with him and it sounded pretty intense, those subs were moving! I could feel my clothes being blown every time the kick hit. Not sure if he had an inside mic as well. Doing both studio and live there are certain things you just don't bother with in a club: Outboard pre's, bottom snare mic (well sometimes), I even do most of my live mixing in mono.

I would suggest hiring an engineer to actually mix before bothering with API's and double micing etc.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Not worth it in small venues.

The entire stage resonates with the low end from the drums, bass, guitars, people jumping around etc... Lots of uncontrollable low end. Especially not worth it if you don't have a guy out front to just switch it off.

You should be able to get more than enough sub power from a D6 in the kick to get that punch from a PA.

Or put another way. I never felt a lack of low end using just an in-kick mic on 2000+ shows. Those things are only really useful in the studio, or huge shows where you have some space and a sound man IMHO.

I agree with this....most of the time I end up using one kik mic, even when headlining with as many channels and mics as I want. The phase problem however is rarely a problem as you can flip the phase on one of the channels.

Nick

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by suedesound

Agreed, I never have felt the need to use two kick mics doing live sound. I will say that the engineer for The Heavy brought a sub kick with him and it sounded pretty intense, those subs were moving! I could feel my clothes being blown every time the kick hit. Not sure if he had an inside mic as well. Doing both studio and live there are certain things you just don't bother with in a club: Outboard pre's, bottom snare mic (well sometimes), I even do most of my live mixing in mono.

I would suggest hiring an engineer to actually mix before bothering with API's and double micing etc.

Definitely mono mixing live...and leave the great pres in your studio at home...way more useful there.

[suedesound]

Sorry to hijack, but when you do panning live what do you do it with? For standard rock acts I pretty much only pan toms (not much) or stereo DI stuff (keys, samples etc). For some quieter shows I'll pan things slightly according to stage position, but I don't know if it's even worth it.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by suedesound

Sorry to hijack, but when you do panning live what do you do it with? For standard rock acts I pretty much only pan toms (not much) or stereo DI stuff (keys, samples etc). For some quieter shows I'll pan things slightly according to stage position, but I don't know if it's even worth it.

Mono.

[MarkRB]

Totally depends on the space. What's wrong with panning stuff? Toms, Keys, Guitars, BVs.

If you have a small space to work in then you should only be doing sound reinforcement, in which case panning is pretty important.
Larger spaces. then mono for the fronts/mains and stereo for the delays sounds great. If you have control over 8+ speaker arrays then going all mono is lazy imho.

[lerone]

Originally Posted by suedesound

Agreed, I never have felt the need to use two kick mics doing live sound. I will say that the engineer for The Heavy brought a sub kick with him and it sounded pretty intense, those subs were moving! I could feel my clothes being blown every time the kick hit. Not sure if he had an inside mic as well. Doing both studio and live there are certain things you just don't bother with in a club: Outboard pre's, bottom snare mic (well sometimes), I even do most of my live mixing in mono.

I would suggest hiring an engineer to actually mix before bothering with API's and double micing etc.

+1 thumbsup

However, I do like to use a nice pre for the lead vocalist to smooth out any sibilance and bring the singer to the foreground with less extreme eq. Has worked wonders ever since!

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by tINY

If you want good sound in small clubs, you'd better budget for good PA speakers.



-tINY

I agree with Tiny, but first there is no way in HELL I would take a 3124+ or my lunchbox or any other high end pre in a smokey club, that is just plan NUTZ, I also do not know of any non smoking clubs around my area.
Buy great speakers !!! and clean power

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

If you have control over 8+ speaker arrays then going all mono is lazy imho.

?

Except for you are doing 3+ mono mixes...

Mains, Front fills, side fills etc etc etc

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

?

Except for you are doing 3+ mono mixes...

Mains, Front fills, side fills etc etc etc

Not talking about monitors. Front of House. I very rarely get to play with big systems, so refuse (or try my best) to deal with mono right down the line.

2 at front (mono), 2 front fills, 2 mids and 2 backs, all stereo.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Totally depends on the space. What's wrong with panning stuff? Toms, Keys, Guitars, BVs.

If you have a small space to work in then you should only be doing sound reinforcement, in which case panning is pretty important.
Larger spaces. then mono for the fronts/mains and stereo for the delays sounds great. If you have control over 8+ speaker arrays then going all mono is lazy imho.

well it depends on the situation...but let's face it most of work is done is way less than ideal situations and panning only makes things less distinguishable for half the audience...that's why mono is king....in a nice theatre with an act that has a very reasonable stage level and has some creatively stereo elements then panning would be cool..unless you work at at theatre full time, those set of circumstances don't come around very often. So really forget about stereo.

Nick

[dbbubba]

Ol' Uncle Dan weighs in....

Don't bother with carrying the APIs to a gig.
Unless your mains have great speaker arrays and great power the extra grooviness of the APIs will be lost.
I see VERY FEW live rigs that are set up well enough that having an API would help anything sound better.

I wouldn't bother with the subkick either.
They work in the studio, but I have never had good results live.
I have used one in a GREAT sounding theater with our Nexo Geo S line array.
Even with having a week of rehearsals where I was able to tweak all I cared to the subkick ended up being muted.
This is $54K of state-of the-art stacks and racks, so if that rig in that room doesn't show a benefit from a subkick, a club rig won't.

As a practical guide...
I can hear the difference between using a mid priced console (specifically a Mackie) compared to one of our Midas consoles very easily on our Nexo rig.
It is a bit harder to hear as big of a difference on one of our Renkus Heinz and Crown powered rigs.
The Renkus/Crown rig is still a 10KW rig and is extremely dialed in... by me (33 years of p.a. experience.)

The Renkus/Crown would be an AWESOME club rig in almost any case (I actually use it for this,) so it is a pretty good sounding rig.
Still, it takes the Nexo to REALLY hear the difference between consoles.
The Renkus/Crown rig would cost about $10K with used components and the Nexo cost $54K...
Not being arrogant, but would the rig you are using be on this level?
If I can barely hear a difference on the Renkus/Crown rig, I doubt you could hear a big difference on an average club rig.

I do have an API 3124, but even with high profile gigs I wouldn't carry it out live.

If you stacks and racks are REALLY good, but your console is awful, then MAYBE you could hear a difference that warranted spending the API money.

I'd put the money into stacks and racks.
Everything would benefit, too.
Not just the kick.

The D6 isn't a bad idea.
Still, everything else needs to be in place.

[dbbubba]

After writing all of the previous post this came to me...

Often in live rigs (and in the studio as well) there ends up being A LOT of un-needed low freq. material rumbling around.
Often you can't hear all of the useless stuff at the F.O.H. position where you'll be making your EQ decisions.
THIS EXTRA AND UN-NEED STUFF USES UP LOTS OF THE POWER YOUR AMPS NEED TO BE GIVING TO YOUR SUBS.

The subkick might just add to this low end mung.

I am hard-headed and stay with what works, but I have actually started using an AUX to drive my subs lately.
I can hi-pass everything, but every little bit helps in some cases.

[opentune]

Pressing the low cut switch and boosting with the low shelf at the same time
can sometimes clean up the low end.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

THIS EXTRA AND UN-NEED STUFF USES UP LOTS OF THE POWER YOUR AMPS NEED TO BE GIVING TO YOUR SUBS.

[dbbubba]

My main money gig comprises about six hours of music playback each Saturday night.
This is music off of CDs provided by participants.

I use half of the Renkus rig for this show and if you set up "FOH" at 90 degrees to the subs or slightly behind them there is a TREMENDOUS amount of low end wrap around. (yes... I have to set up back stage a lot.)
I AM ALWAYS AMAZED AT THE USELESS LOW END THAT IS IN THE STUFF I PLAY!
This is music that is mostly current release, major label stuff although I don't know how the CDs are recorded/ripped that I get.

Keeping the low end under control where you are mostly amplifying and projecting only the freqs. that you need for the rig to sound good is a difficult job.
I'd think that adding the subkick would make it worse.

I can get BRUTAL low end with 4 18"s per side and a Crown 3600.
If I configure them in a cardiod array I can focus the energy even more.

The Nexo already has cardiod firing subs (three boxes per side) and it has really tight low end.

[Josh Rose]

I almost always double mic the kick when mixing FOH. I probably wouldn't use the subkick though. Just go with a d6 out and 57 in, or something like that. Lately I've been using an sm81 in and a Cadm177 out lately. Typically I go to a d112 out and a 57.

Maybe you can get away with one mic, but it can be tricky if you are doing metal, or something that really needs a heavy attack sound. I agree markRB8 when he says that there are gonna be tons of lows on stage. You'll probably not need much low end in the PA speakers, BUT even in these instances, you should still get some kick in the subs because it will add some nice energy to the room.

[dbbubba]

WOW!!! An SM81 inside?
I have never ventured as far as to stick an SM81 in there.
I can get about what I need in any situation (yeah... metal) with a D112 or 421.
EQ and a few other tricks almost always get a good sound.
With a decent console and good stacks and racks I can get an SM57 to work OK, too!

I do often use a n SM81 in conjunction with an SM57 on snare on C&W gigs.
The SM81 gets more details for brushes and stick brushes without cranking the EQ on the SM57.
I have also used an SM57 feeding two channels EQ'd differently for this, but two mics is easier.
I often leave them both on!

I'll give another trick away here.
Use a BBE unit to add artificial click to the kick(s) and then follow it with a DBX166 and use the PEAKSTOP feature to hard limit the kicks.
I used this for years doing the radio broadcasts of major label metal bands.
It didn't matter if it was Metallica, Black Crows, Man-O-War, Mr. Big, Danzig or L.A. Guns... the kick was going to be all over the place.
It was easier than using a Wendell unit!
(how does Lars' kicks sound so awesome live?)

Another great mic?
An Sm91 is great in some cases.
I'd never have tried that, but they sound pretty decent.

[opentune]

SM81? Not SM91?

[plexisys]

As a blanket statement, api, two kick mics and a subkick are a complete waste of time. The quality of the sound is going to be determined by the weakest link in the sound system.

I mixed for many years on the road (see profile) and have know almost every major touring house engineer that was around at the time. I don't know one who ever used two kick mics or subkicks. On the contrary, the guys who usually got the best drum sound used the least amount of mics possible.

The best thing you can do to get a good kick sound is learn how to tune your drums - Every show.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I'll give another trick away here.
Use a BBE unit to add artificial click to the kick(s) and then follow it with a DBX166 and use the PEAKSTOP feature to hard limit the kicks.

So every kickdrum hit was knocked down by the dbx? Gotta try that soon....

[dbbubba]

He typed SM81... anything's possible, but I am not sticking one of mine in there just to find out!

In fact, metal band LIVE?
I'll use a D112 at best and possibly an SM57 if the venue is too crazy.
Fortunately, I don't do many of those any longer!

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by opentune

So every kickdrum hit was knocked down by the dbx? Gotta try that soon....

I used this live AND in the studio on rock/metal stuff.
It was an extension of an idea that came from a live engineer that was mixing the Black Crows.
I was doing a radio remote in a big remote truck and he was bitching about the Black Crows drummer being so inconsistent.
(He was leaving th Black Crows tour do go do Robert Plant I recall, but who he was? I dunno....)
In passing he suggested that I strap a compressor with a 20:1 ration on EVERY drum to even things out.
Interestingly, he never came in the truck and heard what I had going... he just was bitching about the drummer.

In the truck's DBX900 rack with the compressors was a two channel BBE "enhancer."
I just added the BBE to the kick before the compressor (limiter) and it worked!

At my studio I had a BBE enhancer (worthless except for this app.) and a DBX166 doing nothing.

On LOUD live mixes it keeps the kick drum at one level.
It helps keep it above the wall of rock/metal sludge.
The BBE adds extra click and the peak stop limiter keeps it in check.
The BBE adds the extra top end only when the kick's natural click is there unlike EQ which adds in the bleed from extra EQ.

You can add in a gate at the end I guess and I probably put a gate first in the chain a few times as well.

It works!

[opentune]

My kickdrum mic´ing/mixing depends basically on the song tempo/style. It´s either
the high speed/double bass/blastbeat snare/death metal thing or it´s the midtempo/groovy/straight metal band.

It´s a huge difference to me.

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Fortunately, I don't do many of those any longer!

Tired of the high volume?

[plexisys]

I just added the BBE to the kick before the compressor (limiter) and it worked!

You can do the same thing boosting 800-1.2k on the kick eq depending on the beater and drum head.

A comp/limiter on individual drums or the drum submix is a normal everyday thing in live sound.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I used this live AND in the studio on rock/metal stuff.

I´ll give that a try on my next job (if needed) !

I had nice results with the BSS 901 on uneven kickdrums. In the studio i often use
lots of Eq followed by a de-esser to tame these extra hf kickdrum hits that show
up when the drummer hits it really hard.

The BBE/dbx solution seems a lot more practical.