Mic'ing a grand piano with AKG C414's Stereo Pair

[ldosiecki]

I will be micing a Yamaha Grand with a pair of AKG C414's in a X-Y configuration about 8" above the hammers.

My question is how to pan the mics and if I will have any phase issues?

If anybody has tried this please let me know!

Thanks

[staudio]

Originally Posted by ldosiecki

I will be micing a Yamaha Grand with a pair of AKG C414's in a X-Y configuration about 8" above the hammers.

My question is how to pan the mics and if I will have any phase issues?

If anybody has tried this please let me know!

Thanks

8 inches is a little low for my taste, you might miss some far low strings depending on the angle you use and the position in the piano. Try a little higher up like 1 ft or 14 inches.

Generally X/Y is pretty phase problem immune, however you may have phase issues with the leakage from other instruments and their spot mics.

The panning depends on how you want to present the piano in the stereo field and its relationship to the other instruments. The mic that points towards the low strings I call the "Low Mic" the mic that points to the high strings I call the "High Mic". Generally I never hard pan mics that are inside a piano because it doesn't sound natural to me. Remember, no one listens to a piano with their head inside the lid and if you stand back from the piano the sound is basically mono. Beware of the super wide piano and narrow everything else problem. If you are panning from the player's perspective than "Low" is to the left and "High" is to the right. Sorry I can't give you more specifics but it really is a choice that is made in context with the rest of the music. No panning could very well be the right choice for some things.

[ldosiecki]

Thanks for the tips. Depending on how those two mics sound I might add a AT3035 on the bottom of the piano (for low-end freq's.), and a AT4047 as a room mic. What do you think? Or will 4 mics be too much?

[Jim vanBergen]

Less is more. If you can't get the sound you want with two mics, move those mics. If the sound is what you want but you need another dimension, another mic MAY add what you want, but I'd be more concerned about phase issues.

[ldosiecki]

Cool, thanks for the advice.

[rumleymusic]

however you may have phase issues with the leakage from other instruments and their spot mics.

The spot mics would have to be pretty darn close for that.

Phase will not be a problem with XY or even a spaced pair as long as you pan hard L and R. (And I think you should)

I don't think you need to worry about low frequencies. If you mic over the hammers, I would set to 414's to omni and space them. If you are going to do XY, it is usually better done outside, near the curve of the piano.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by ldosiecki

I will be micing a Yamaha Grand with a pair of AKG C414's in a X-Y configuration about 8" above the hammers.

I suggest you will get a pretty horrible sound that close and above the hammers. The hammers do not produce the sound of the of piano, the soundboard does. Move back and down near the middle of the soundboard for more convincing results

[springer]

Is this solo piano?
Style?

I have tried nearly everything for piano in a loud jazz group situation and XY over the heammers was the most convincing I ever got - I think due to the attack being more prominent.

[trompetfreak]

Blegh... I really REALLY don't like the 414's, aspecially on grand piano. They sound very metal.

Get a pair of TLM103's if you want LDC's or KM140's, wich are my favorites... And try a LDC (but not 414 :P ) in the end of the tail, to catch the bottom end as a bonus.

Depending on the setup, room and lit-position, I'd get as far out of the piano as possible, up to 1,5 meter, if it's a solo piano in a good sounding room with open lit. In a loud band, I'd get the 140's right in there, close to the hammers in a very wide ORTF.
If you really want X/Y, I wouldn't go into the instrument, but stay on the edge.

Best results for me

[outUVphaze]

Originally Posted by staudio

8 inches is a little low for my taste, you might miss some far low strings depending on the angle you use and the position in the piano. Try a little higher up like 1 ft or 14 inches.

Generally X/Y is pretty phase problem immune, however you may have phase issues with the leakage from other instruments and their spot mics.

The panning depends on how you want to present the piano in the stereo field and its relationship to the other instruments. The mic that points towards the low strings I call the "Low Mic" the mic that points to the high strings I call the "High Mic". Generally I never hard pan mics that are inside a piano because it doesn't sound natural to me. Remember, no one listens to a piano with their head inside the lid and if you stand back from the piano the sound is basically mono. Beware of the super wide piano and narrow everything else problem. If you are panning from the player's perspective than "Low" is to the left and "High" is to the right. Sorry I can't give you more specifics but it really is a choice that is made in context with the rest of the music. No panning could very well be the right choice for some things.

[B]"Remember, no one listens to a piano with their head inside the lid"[/


I was just reading through these posts and came across a moment of brilliance that seemed obvious, yet at the same time not consciously noted until now.

It's true! People don't listen to the piano with their heads inside the lid.

The brilliance and simplicity of it.

What else can you say after that.

But were people to listen to the piano from inside the lid, then what type of world would we be living in...???

Yes, I have spent the evening listening to the Doors. lol

What a quote... I love it!

Cheers,

John

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by outUVphaze

It's true! People don't listen to the piano with their heads inside the lid.

The brilliance and simplicity of it.

What else can you say after that.

So what?

No one listens with their head right in front of a singer or a guitar amp. And no one will listen to a symphony orchestra from 2 or 3 m behind and above the conductor. We still record it that way. Guess why?

[hbphotoav]

Bruce Swedien uses a pair of 414s in a modified Blumlein on his C7 at what looks like 12" over the brace 1/3 of the way down from the high end, over the hammers (see: (Bruce Swedien (Michael Jackson, Paul McCartney, Count Basie). It's definitely for a "pop" or "country" application... bright, percussive, wide stereo image... but it might work for you.

[richgilb]

These mics are similar to the 414 (but better). The owner used to work for AKG, I believe. They are showing a technique similar to your ideas.

Recording Piano with 2 Lewitt LCT 640s - YouTube

[outUVphaze]

Originally Posted by d_fu

So what?

No one listens with their head right in front of a singer or a guitar amp. And no one will listen to a symphony orchestra from 2 or 3 m behind and above the conductor. We still record it that way. Guess why?

Am aware as to reasons why...


It was intended to be a moment of jocularity.

Peace out

[king2070lplaya]

Like anything, it really depends on the instrument. Some pianos sound awesome miked close inside. Some like honky-tonks. You gotta adjust accordingly, learn as many techniques as you can and experience will teach you which one to use when.

I find that in 90 percent of applications, that I prefer spaced sets on piano instead of coincident, and prefer omnis and open cards to pure cardioids. But then theres that one time m-s sounds badass, so it's all relative to the situation. Experience is your best friend, and experimentation crucial to exploring the options available to you. Have fun!

[loujudson]

Just for a hoot, take a look at this - creative use of 414s in dual piano micing:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3drqJ1bUmEA>

Might not apply yo what you are doing, but don't be afraid to experiement. There are millions of correct mic positions, just find one that works. But as others have said, 414 might not be the best choice. I never owned any and have never missed them.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Just for a hoot, take a look at this - creative use of 414s in dual piano micing:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3drqJ1bUmEA>

Jeez Louise! Two of the real giants. A CanAm talent marathon! What I would have given to sit in a chair there that night.

[estudiohighend]

I recorded a large stenway with two spaced (low and high micking) omnis DPA mics, at aprox 10" but avobe the half of strings instead of hammers... and after i make a hard pan, and was amazing... awas in a fusion folk band

[Phil Cibley]

[QUOTE=ldosiecki;4039209]

My question is ........ if I will have any phase issues?

[QUOTE]


If leakage is not a problem, you might want to remove the lid. Sound bouncing
off the lid into the rear of the mics could be a problem as far as phase is concerned.

[king2070lplaya]

Ha, how very Gus Dodgeon of you. The lid is an integral part of the way a piano is designed to sound. I've never had trouble with lid reflections causing phase issues

[estudiohighend]

check this out... .may be help
TCM MASTERING: HOME MUSIC STUDIO – PART 8 MIKING INSTRUMENTS: PIANO

[ssrat]

I gave up using two seperate mics on a piano a long time ago. I now use one stereo mic to catch it all. Of course the vertical position of the mic depends on where the piano is located in relationship to other instruments but this method works in all situations, top up or top down. My current favorites for stereo mics is either the AT4025 or the Shure VP88. The mic is positioned facing the hammers and back about 8" and a little to the low string side of center. That's the top down/low stick position. Top up or no top and you can start raising the mic and pointing it down toward the hammers. I have to tell you that this mic arrangement produces even balance across all notes and folds down to a perfect mono signal. And, as far as I've been able to tell over the last five years I've been using it, produces the quickest and easiest way to mic any piano from 5' models to the big 9' giants. Give it a try.