Live sound: how to minimize feedback from vocal mic

[eligit]

Hi guys....just looking for both tech tips (for the mixer) and technique tips (for the singer)and mic choice.....all to minimize feedback at live shows.

proximity to mic, etc etc....whatever you can think of.

thanks for the help!

[tINY]

Hyper- or Super- cardioid mics can help. Put the mains in front of the stage. Notch out problem frequencies in the monitors.

Don't cup the mic.




-tINY

[eligit]

Originally Posted by tINY

Hyper- or Super- cardioid mics can help. Put the mains in front of the stage. Notch out problem frequencies in the monitors.

Don't cup the mic.




-tINY

thanks for the tips.

i will pass this along to the singer in my band.

anyone else want to weigh in?

[nickynicknick]

I like beta 58's for vox...seem to cut a little more before feedback....in the monitors always high pass vocal mics at 100-150 hz on the channel and usually notch out 80 and below considerably on the graph...other problem spots that usually end up being graphed out a little are 200 hz, 630 hz, 2.k in the monitors...tame the low end first in the montitors because it'll help the vox cut better without having to turn it up as much...actually vox in the monitors shouldn't sound nice..they should sound a bit abrasive IMHO of course....and I'm just generalizing in a rock setting. Hope that helps.

Nick

[eligit]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I like beta 58's for vox...seem to cut a little more before feedback....in the monitors always high pass vocal mics at 100-150 hz on the channel and usually notch out 80 and below considerably on the graph...other problem spots that usually end up being graphed out a little are 200 hz, 630 hz, 2.k in the monitors...tame the low end first in the montitors because it'll help the vox cut better without having to turn it up as much...actually vox in the monitors shouldn't sound nice..they should sound a bit abrasive IMHO of course....and I'm just generalizing in a rock setting. Hope that helps.

Nick

good thoughts. i am taking notes.

[cortisol]

Usually the soundperson cranks up the monitors and notches the frequencies that the the mic feeds back at down.

For a singerI think its good to remember to sheild the mic from the backline so that the soundperson gets a nice clean vocal rather than the band coming through the vocal mic. Also sound can reflect off the face and into the mic so look at the angle of the face and see if the monitors will reflect straight into the mic and then adjust the mic angle and height accordingly to avoid this. And definately whatout for cupping the mic with the hand or letting the hands cover some of the basket on the mic as it will change the tuning of the mic and sound boxy and introduce mid heavy feedback.

The total PA system needs headroom to remain distortion free so optimise those gain settings so that distortions don't build up as they will lead to feedback as well.

Peace,
cortisol

[Kiwi]

FWIW - I struggled for years with live feedback issues, because I was using the wrong mic. I stupidly (I'm ashamed to admit) bought AKG C1000S for live - thinking that the Hypercardioid feature was going to be better than the basic SM58's etc. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Don't trust anything about published mic specs - including "patterns". They are approximations for marketing purposes only. And maybe marketing weren't talking to R & D when they printed these wish lists. The cheaper the mic, the "better" the spec - and the real high end makers publish specs that scare you in comparison, but guess which ones will be better anyhow.

But for stage, if you haven't tried an SM58, or the Beta 58 (new ones - I think there was an issue with older Beta 58's) then you should immediately try them. Anything else you may try should be compared with this industry standard. Because they work.

[Fash]

1. Use a good live vocal mic. Shure SM58 is fine. Get right on it and do not cup it. Use a high quality cable as well.

2. Place the FOH speakers well in front of the front lline of mics.

3. Place stage monitors directly behind cardioid mics and at a 45 degree angle to super-cardioid mics.

4. Start with your channel EQ flat. Use the channel EQ for tone tweaks and a graph for feedback suppression. Honestly, if you place the mics correctly and you don't need crazy monitor levels you will have minimal problems with gain.

5. Most importantly do not over-compress your vocals, especially if FOH and monitors are being mixed from the same console. A standard dbx 160x or 160A will work great to tame dynamics. Start at 4:1 and be conservative with gain reduction.

6. Smart gain staging, mic placement and technique are where it is at. Then you can lower some problem frequencies if needed.

[Joe Porto]

Get to know your mic's polar pattern. I cardioid mic actually rejects more than a super or hypercardioid directly from behind (hypercardioid actually has the worst rear rejection of the three). With a cardioid, put the monitor directly in front of the singer. With super/hypercardioid, you need to put the monitor slightly to one side.

Of course, the easiest remedy in theory, but the hardest to implement is to get the band to turn down so you don't have to totally crank the monitors.

[eligit]

thanks for the advice guys.

just to be clear....the situation here is not me mixing....just playing in the band....i am researching how to help my singer reduce her feedback issues at live shows.

so i will be doing my best to convey the information i find here (and elsewhere) to the random mixers who we run into in the clubs...not always an easy task when you get either no sound check or a very cursory one and have to set up in 20 minutes at most.

fwiw the house mic is typically a 58 in most of these places....and it is not like we are getting insane feedback....just a bit here and there....and just a bit for vocal mic feedback is more than enough.

lots of helpful stuff here guys...thanks for the answers!

[garysjo]

Originally Posted by eligit

thanks for the advice guys.

just to be clear....the situation here is not me mixing....just playing in the band....i am researching how to help my singer reduce her feedback issues at live shows.

so i will be doing my best to convey the information i find here (and elsewhere) to the random mixers who we run into in the clubs...not always an easy task when you get either no sound check or a very cursory one and have to set up in 20 minutes at most.

fwiw the house mic is typically a 58 in most of these places....and it is not like we are getting insane feedback....just a bit here and there....and just a bit for vocal mic feedback is more than enough.

lots of helpful stuff here guys...thanks for the answers!

sounds like you are at the mercy of others....that can be a problem. You have received very good advice here but again sounds like much of this is outside your control.

Feedback is never the singer's fault....unless of course they are also runnign teh PA....usually doesn't work so well.

As to mic selection, I was a die hard 58 user for many years and later switched to Audix OM-5's which I loved for sound quality and hi gai before feedback.

[kooz]

OK, in your situation (gun and run: 20 minutes to set up and check), feedback is going to be pretty unavoidable as the person mixing is trying to get a handle on you. That it only squeaks or squeals occasionally is an indication that the singer's mic is too hot; either she's quiet on the mic or the band is too loud...and the mixer knows the rig pretty well and has it tuned nicely. Ear plugs are your friends...you should be using them anyway if you're doing more than 40 minute sets.

Be gentle and nice when explaining things to the "random mixers you encounter," or else you may find an unwillingness to help you. remember, you've both been hired for a reason.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by garysjo

sounds like you are at the mercy of others....that can be a problem. You have received very good advice here but again sounds like much of this is outside your control.

Feedback is never the singer's fault....unless of course they are also runnign teh PA....usually doesn't work so well.

As to mic selection, I was a die hard 58 user for many years and later switched to Audix OM-5's which I loved for sound quality and hi gai before feedback.

well....yes and no.

to be honest even tho this stuff IS largely outside my control....i have met some really helpful and personable sound guys over the years. some of them will actually listen to me if i speak to them respectfully either before set up, during set up, during sound check....even in the middle of a set.

i have found a little dialog before a set will usually produce a much more pleasant show, including reducing feedback. the worst case scenario is pissing off the sound guy before a show...he will simply hit the "suck" button and leave the booth....and then you will be fully screwed.

i also can't help but think that a singer can use mic and vocal technique to create a situation where (SOME of) the things that CAUSE feedback are less likely to be a problem.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by kooz

OK, in your situation (gun and run: 20 minutes to set up and check), feedback is going to be pretty unavoidable as the person mixing is trying to get a handle on you. That it only squeaks or squeals occasionally is an indication that the singer's mic is too hot; either she's quiet on the mic or the band is too loud...and the mixer knows the rig pretty well and has it tuned nicely. Ear plugs are your friends...you should be using them anyway if you're doing more than 40 minute sets.

Be gentle and nice when explaining things to the "random mixers you encounter," or else you may find an unwillingness to help you. remember, you've both been hired for a reason.

yes...right on.

she can be a bit timid from time to time...and i tend to let my volume creep up....so we are still searching for a happy medium. that is absolutely a factor. actually we really do NOT play that loud at all....relatively.....it is not "jazz volume" by any means....but it is not exactly my bloody valentine either. i tend to think if she just got within three inches and sung a bit louder it would basically solve the whole issue to a large degree. then the mic could be less hot....and bingo...less feedback.

[petrovinksy]

When playing a set where I'm not sure the vocal monitoring will be loud enough for me, I wear ear plugs. We play loud and with the earplugs in its almost like in ear monitoring for me. some times i take one out or sometimes both depending on the levels the monitors are giving me.

[tINY]

Originally Posted by eligit

yes...right on.
i tend to think if she just got within three inches and sung a bit louder ....

I found your problem. If she can't sing louder, she should at least kiss the mic. Don't give her more monitor if she can't hear - make her sing for it.




-tINY

[eligit]

Originally Posted by tINY

I found your problem. If she can't sing louder, she should at least kiss the mic. Don't give her more monitor if she can't hear - make her sing for it.




-tINY

that is a very useful condensation.

i will pass that along.