Cheap but OK graphic to insert on master bus?

[Blast9]

Hi folks,

Can you recommend a bargain graphic EQ to look out for second hand?

What sort of octave divisions should I look out for?

I really don't want to get one of those Alesis rack thingies, as I remember them being rather noisy - correct me if I'm wrong!

I'm acting as "technical guru" to my buddy running a very vibrant open mic nite.

Trying to get the best out of a low-end rig, and make the performers smile (except the emo boys )

-

The overall sound is nice and clear - plenty of headroom

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I've donated 4 channels of B*hringer Composer (the "almost vintage" MDX 2100 from mid 90's) - so far so good

We have a Mackie VLZ 1604 >>> some powered 2 way monitors.

The Mackie's individual sweepable channel EQs are OK but... Only 1 mid freq can be tweaked.

I need more specific control over the 2-6k hi mids range, and get rid of the bottom heavy colour of the monitors.

[opentune]

I remember that Yamaha Graphic EQ (i think it´s called Q2031 ?). It was
not high end, but did a great job.
Have no idea what such a unit will cost on the second hand market. But it´s
worth to look for some info on the net.

I´d definetely go for a third octave EQ - anything less might get you in trouble,
especially when using low end speakers.

Again, the Yamaha is a decent unit with all the features you´ll need.

[Blast9]

Nice - thanks for the heads up

[bishopthomas]

I will completely disagree about the Yamaha unit. Noisy and unresponsive. I'd rather have a Behringer. Get the one with all the pretty lights and it will help your friend learn frequencies too.

[Blast9]

LOL - Thanks - that's actually a really good idea!

Is It this one: http://www.dv247.com/assets/products/19866_l.jpg

The Ultragraph Pro?

One reqirement - I'm trying to avoid anything that's gonna be detrimental to the "OK but could be better" sound

[mixedupsteve]

Alot of people in the live sound world like their Behringer EQs. The reliability and the Name Plate seem to be the only drawbacks.
DBX 231 is a good unit and the Rane EQs are good too.
If your notching out feedback problems then go 31 bands. If you just want sound shaping you might even get by with 15 band EQs which sell for cheap on the used market.
Also, I think that if the monitor EQ is your problem then you should address that too rather than just the mains.

[huub]

The ranes are pretty okay.

[aussie_techie]

30/31 band 1/3 octave with long throw faders (3U for a 2ch unit) is a must for any serious setup.

ive never met anyone who likes a behringer eq because they are terrible units.

there are some good chinese units if you can find them amongst the crap but in reality the minimum professional unit is going to be a dbx 1231 (not the 2 series) anything less is a compromise.

i see plenty of second hand dbx units around so you should be able to pick up a 1231 relatively cheap.

then again if you need specific control in a single range 1/3 octave might be to wide, you may need a parametric.

[staudio]

Dbx 2231.

[Remoteness]

If you can find it in good condition the original White Instruments graphic is an awesome EQ.
The Klark Teknik DN360 is also a very decent graphic EQ.

[GZsound]

I would recommend a dbx 215 dual 15 band for a good inexpensive graphic EQ.

Peavey makes their PV 231 which is a dual 31 band EQ.

Thses units both sell new for $159 and would work just fine in a basic PA.

[jude]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The Klark Teknik DN360 is also a very decent graphic EQ.

damn straight! found on almost every FOH rider

[Remoteness]

You can find a used DN360 online for a pretty decent price.

[DanDan]

For a million reasons, don't get a Behringer.
Klark are probably the best. BSS are very nice. Rane DBX Yamaha all fine.
But please do not support Behringer.
DD

[bishopthomas]

It didn't take long for someone to bring up Klark Teknik and then BSS while suggesting CHEAP gear for the OP. I only mentioned Behringer as an alternative to the Yamaha suggestion by the poster before me. I have used both and prefer the B*. I am in no way saying that this unit is "good," only that it meets the CHEAP qualification that the OP gave. Of course I would prefer BSS, Ashly, then KT (in that order) but none of them are cheap.

When giving suggestions on gear alternatives I like to stay in the same price range. It seems like a lot of people (not just here but the entire audio world in general) think that nothing else works besides the top 5 products of that type. We are such snobs and it is very off-putting to someone looking for advice but without a pocket full of hundreds. I wish had had the money to refer to the DN360, BSS Opal, or even DBX 2231 as "cheap." I guess it's all relative.

[Blast9]

^ I hear you :-) ... this is really just to start them off (a "cheap but OK" gift from me basically).

If they get a budget later on, then I'll throw some suggestions at them as per above.

Thanks again

[Rick Sutton]

I got a White 31 band off of Ebay for less than $200 that I use for my PA and it has helped immensely with a feedback problem I had in the 400 Hz area.

[Remoteness]

Rick, did you grab the one with the potentiometers or the faders?

The white graphic EQ with the pots was an awesome EQ!

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Rick, did you grab the one with the potentiometers or the faders?

The white graphic EQ with the pots was an awesome EQ!

With the pots. It really is a nice unit and looks and sounds just like new. Apparently it spent it's entire life in a permanent installation as I believe is common with the White EQs.......a good deal for me! I put my small PA together so I could supply it to acoustic acts when I was doing a remote. I really don't want to deal with another low quality PA that spills into my recording so I bit the bullet and put my own together. The White was the last piece of the puzzle that really brought things together.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The Klark Teknik DN360 is also a very decent graphic EQ.

Good EQ! I´d like to add that Pin 3 is hot (unusual), and make sure you buy
one with balanced outputs! And be aware that it costs probably more than
your mixing desk...

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

With the pots. It really is a nice unit and looks and sounds just like new. Apparently it spent it's entire life in a permanent installation as I believe is common with the White EQs.......a good deal for me! I put my small PA together so I could supply it to acoustic acts when I was doing a remote. I really don't want to deal with another low quality PA that spills into my recording so I bit the bullet and put my own together. The White was the last piece of the puzzle that really brought things together.

Man, I'm jealous of your $200.00 White Instruments purchase.
Awesome deal for an awesome product...

I wasn't too impressed with their fader version.
I'm glad you got the right unit!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by opentune

Good EQ! I´d like to add that Pin 3 is hot (unusual), and make sure you buy
one with balanced outputs! And be aware that it costs probably more than
your mixing desk...

No, it wasn't unusual back in the day.
Everything was pin 3 hot and it makes total sense.
I held off and was one of the last to change over to pin 2 hot.

Think about it...
The pin that's by its self is the hot pin.
So many folks make mistakes and swap pin 2 with pin 1 when wiring.
So, it either works or doesn't work.

At least with pin 3 hot the cable will still work because you're swapping the ground and cold.
It's not correct, but it will work... sort of.

[opentune]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Think about it...
The pin that's by its self is the hot pin.
So many folks make mistakes and swap pin 2 with pin 1 when wiring.
So, it either works or doesn't work.

At least with pin 3 hot the cable will still work because you're swapping the ground and cold.
It's not correct, but it will work... sort of.

Seems like the best solution. Well, it actually IS the best solution.
Yeah, i knew about that old standard - but never realised that it
was the better way to assign the pins.
Thanks for the extra info!!

Originally Posted by Remoteness

No, it wasn't unusual back in the day.
Everything was pin 3 hot and it makes total sense.
I held off and was one of the last to change over to pin 2 hot.

When did that happen? And why?

[Remoteness]

Man, that is a long story that happened between Canon and Switchcraft.

I believe Canon originally numbered the pins, 1 = ground, 2 = hot which was in the center position and 3 = cold.

The AES came up with their standard based on the Canon numbers and not their positions.

Switchcraft started making 3 pin XLR connectors.
They changed the pin numbers for patient issues with Canon.

When Switchcraft became the more popular connector, Canon changed the numbering to the Switchcraft standard so there wasn't any confusion.

The AES kept their pin two hot standard.

Some manufacturers and companies like Aura-Sonic kept with the pin three hot situation because it made a lot more sense...

Eventually we had to change because everyone finally changed.

This happened many many years ago way before I got into this game in the late 70s.

Listen, this is what I've heard, so don't take it as the gospel.
I've heard various versions of this story and I believe the original one I heard was accurate, but you never know.

[Blast9]

Great info guys... keep it coming!

Whilst we're on the subject... Please educate us neophytes:

What makes a crappy graphic EQ... well... "crappy"?

I've always wondered why the very thing you can use to cut high frequencies is itself hissy (I'm talking bout the cheap ones now)

Also are there issues with phase coherency in analog devices with very narrow bands?

Do sliders have the same components as pots?

[aussie_techie]

England had pin 3 hot and the USA wanted to be different so made pin 2 hot and then forced the whole world to change. just like they took the u out of colour or driving on the wrong side of the road.

actually i have no idea really its just something that sounded right but steve's explanation does make more sense.

all of the older klark teknik units are still made pin 3 hot but can be changed internally and if everything is balanced and wired pin to pin it makes no difference as the phase is reversed twice. only the newer series of products are changing over.

I find most people have no idea which pin is hot on their units so they never know if a system is going to be phase coherent.

[DanDan]

Interesting story about Canon and Switchcraft. The AES, BBC, and all of Europe at least have always used the agreed AES standard. 2 Hot.
There is also an agreement that a positive pressure on a mic diaphragm will give positive going voltage swing and so on.
The USA went with 3 Hot for whatever reason they do that type of thing.
Changing spellings in the English language is indeed fairly silly. As is changing pronounciations. It is really strange for us to hear a strongly Irish name such as Kathleen, which sounds as it is spelled, changed to Caitlin. Why?
Or Bruce SpringClean singing Mrs. McGrayth which is of course McGrath, pronounced Mac Gra (aah).
America has no need to insist on it's individuality in these manners. It is sad to see it.

DD

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Blast9

Great info guys... keep it coming!

Whilst we're on the subject... Please educate us neophytes:

What makes a crappy graphic EQ... well... "crappy"?

I've always wondered why the very thing you can use to cut high frequencies is itself hissy (I'm talking bout the cheap ones now)

Also are there issues with phase coherency in analog devices with very narrow bands?

Do sliders have the same components as pots?

Basicly cheap components and cheap construction methods.

EQs for the most part use opamps like micpres. Any active circuit can introduce self noise. Cheap passive components, like resistors and caps, used in the filter sections just dont sound that great.

Well made equipment will have heavy duty parts and the sliders, switches etc will be attached to the chassis instead of just poking through the hole.
Internally they will usually be designed with the servicabiliy in mind.
There are many other reasons but once you get around equipment for awhile you can just tell.

Those White EQs with the pots apparently use inductors in them instead of resistors. More expensive and alot better.

[Blast9]

^ Thanks Steve

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Basicly cheap components and cheap construction methods.

EQs for the most part use opamps like micpres. Any active circuit can introduce self noise. Cheap passive components, like resistors and caps, used in the filter sections just dont sound that great.

Well made equipment will have heavy duty parts and the sliders, switches etc will be attached to the chassis instead of just poking through the hole.
Internally they will usually be designed with the servicabiliy in mind.
There are many other reasons but once you get around equipment for awhile you can just tell.

Those White EQs with the pots apparently use inductors in them instead of resistors. More expensive and alot better.

thumbsup