Critique this choir recording please?

[Corran]

I find one of the hardest things I've had to record is choirs. They are generally quiet, so there is no room for error in mic placement, and I find I often must employ some kind of noise reduction regardless. Also, direct-to-reverb ratios are tough, to me.

Anyway, I recorded a Festival yesterday of 15 choirs, from elementary to high school. I had NO soundcheck (it was not possible) and only about 1 hour to setup. I used a B&O BM-5 stereo ribbon in MS directly off stage, about 15 feet from the choirs, and a pair of Earthworks QTC-1s another 10 feet back in the front row separated about 15 feet. These plugged into a Sytek preamp then directly to my HD24XR at 48/24. Recorded in a high school auditorium with pretty good acoustics (!), but just a touch of reverb was added in Sonar (I mean barely any). Edit: actually no, there is no added reverb, my bad.

I'd love to hear what you guys think. I like the sound but I'm not sure how good it is compared to other choir recordings. I've actually only recorded choral concerts about 3 times, and each one was completely different in terms of programming/venue/whatever.

Also, what is some general setups that some of you use for choirs? I'm especially interested in mic placement, because typical half-circle choir riser setups make the majority of the choir very far away from the lip of the stage. I have been hesitant to put a mic on stage in fear of it being a sightlines issue.

[hughesmr]

Hi Bryan,

First impressions: the image hangs on the L channel; it's easy to spot the artificial reverb (touch too much tail for realism IMO). The sense of space you get is nice on first listen, but as is goes on it loses its "honesty" to me ... I think the wide spacing of your mics and delay issues are creating a hollow qaulity that on continued listening becomes a bit distracting. I wonder if it has to do with folding in the M/S signal with widely spaced omnis. How do you have these mixed (ratios, M vs S, etc)?

The ribbon is nice .... pretty smooth with a good sheen on the syllables. Did you HPF the EW at all?

You are right, choral can be a bitch ... especially in a room with bad nodes or architectural shapes that cause particular voices to laser-beam into the mics. I think your balance of direct/room is good, but I'd like to hear the raw signal w/o added reverb.

There are threads on GS with many personal opinions on micing choral groups. A stereo ribbon with flanks is fairly well documented as a good choice for gear for this app, but IMO every venue/situation is different and having a chance to test setups is the best strategy. Keep pluggin' away! thumbsup

[pbansen]

I think it sounds good - particularly if the room is mostly cinder block as it appears it is in the photograph. It's slightly bright for my taste, but it seems like a good choir and it sounds like the recording is an accurate representation of what they sang and how it sounded in the room. Actually, the recording probably sounds better than the performance sounded in that room.

Nice job, I'd say!

[aracu]

The image needs to be centered.

[Corran]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments so far! The image issue is something I didn't point out, but since I was recording 15 choirs in rapid succession, each choir was a little different in terms of people and setup. So some choirs have a shift in image because they were simply more to the left (or right) of the mics. Should I mainly pan the streo bus on each track to re-position the image?

hughesmr, the M-S ratio has the M down a few db to enhance the width. I don't know if that created any issues. It was too mono for me with them equal. I almost put the EW mics directly flanking the ribbon but I wanted more room and therefore set them up further back. I normally try to keep everything in the same general plane but this was an experiment. I HPF'd the stereo bus to get rid of a lot of AC noise and plane noise (crop dusters - this was way out in the country ).

So, the artificial reverb: I actually went back to bounce this track without the added reverb but discovered I had actually deleted the reverb already! I added it but got rid of it and didn't remember. So this clip had no added reverb. The auditorium really did have that tail itself.

And pbansen, thanks for the compliments.

[BrianHanke]

Really nice! Sounds very real, clear and present. My only thought is that it needs quite a bit more center. The fact that the Earthworks were positioned so far apart and that you decreased the mid signal leaves a big hole in the middle. I would boost the mid back up and perhaps even eliminate the side altogether. I think having the side signal plus the Earthworks puts too much emphasis on the room ambience.

[Corran]

Alright I'll mess with the levels between the mics some. I must admit I often try to exaggerate the stereo field, because I like to be able to pinpoint instruments/voices in the field. Sometimes I might overdo it.

[Plush]

I would recommend not using omnis in this room or any room not of excellent acoustics.

You have chosen mic set-ups that conflict with each other and fight each other. The m/s
ribbon sounds more towards a narrow soundstage and the omnis, at just about the width of the group, are widely spaced.

Blended together they offer up a confusing stereo picture. By the time you add in room sound from the omnis, you have blurred the words of the choir.

[mathieujm]

Why did you post a 22k sample ? I can't read it with my interface.

JMM

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Plush

I would recommend not using omnis in this room or any room not of excellent acoustics.

You have chosen mic set-ups that conflict with each other and fight each other. The m/s
ribbon sounds more towards a narrow soundstage and the omnis, at just about the width of the group, are widely spaced.

Blended together they offer up a confusing stereo picture. By the time you add in room sound from the omnis, you have blurred the words of the choir.

I guess I need to sell my omnis then. I hardly get to record in "excellent" acoustics.

Would moving the omnis inward a bit fix the conflict? Unfortunately as I mentioned I didn't get any soundcheck so it was setup and go. I set the omnis a bit wider than I normally do just as a bit of an experiment.

Intelligibility of the words is very important so I'm interested to hear what you think would improve that. In comparison to previous choir recordings the intelligibility is a lot better but of course there are always improvements to be made.

mathieujm, I'm not sure what is going on - it was a 44/16 file when I converted it to mp3. Unless I did something unwittingly it should be 44/16 still. I think I changed the bit rate on the converter - I will change it back.

I have been experimenting with putting a mid-side effect on the stereo bus and increasing the mid and decreasing the side. I also panned the whole thing to the right to recenter the image. Here it is:

[BrianHanke]

The new version sounds perfect to my ears! It's very realistic and I can imagine exactly what it was like to be in the hall for the performance. I don't have any trouble at all understanding the words.

[NorseHorse]

I second the second version.

Just compared it to one of my archived choral mp3s and realized I hate mp3s of choral music. I can handle pretty much everything else, but the human voice just doesn't seem to translate as well as I would like. Oh well.

Let us know if you play around with the mix with Plush's comments in mind. However, I just used m/s with outriggers this week on a "jazz orchestra" in NY and it sounded great. They can compliment each other, at least in some cases. And if you drop the SIDE, you can mix it like A/B/C.

PS. Isn't blurring words the point of choral music? Otherwise, people would just speak what they mean to say...

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Corran

I guess I need to sell my omnis then.

If they're EW, Plush will take 'em.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I second the second version.

Just compared it to one of my archived choral mp3s and realized I hate mp3s of choral music. I can handle pretty much everything else, but the human voice just doesn't seem to translate as well as I would like. Oh well.

Let us know if you play around with the mix with Plush's comments in mind. However, I just used m/s with outriggers this week on a "jazz orchestra" in NY and it sounded great. They can compliment each other, at least in some cases. And if you drop the SIDE, you can mix it like A/B/C.

PS. Isn't blurring words the point of choral music? Otherwise, people would just speak what they mean to say...

I have hated my choral recordings before, but I am pretty happy with this one. I can not stress enough how much quality equipment makes a difference on such a quiet group of musicians.

I found that if I dropped the side completely out the intelligibility of the words went away really quick. Stereo ribbons, as many will tell you, are really good with the human voice and therefore understanding what is being sung. And frankly I have yet to hear a choral recording where I could understand even half of what is being sung. I believe most choral music should be at least mostly understandable - which is why singers take classes like Diction.

Originally Posted by hughesmr

If they're EW, Plush will take 'em.

Don't get me started

[MaTr1x2051]

First... if you can't understand the words, then either the performers or the director aren't very good... or both. Much of the point of choral music is in the text. It needs to be conveyed to the audience.

The other day I did a choir accompanied by piano. Used a Schoeps CMXY 4V as the main with a spot on the piano. Great sound, easily balanced... not a whole lot of work. The pair was about 15 - 20 feet from the ensemble, 4 feet-ish behind the conductor. It was probably about 10 or 12 feet up from the stage floor.

With just a hint of the piano spot, the overall sound was nice. The hall was pretty shallow and about 300 seats I would guess. Even non-omni Schoeps capsules seem to all respond flat down to around 50Hz, so you don't need to use omnis to avoid rolloff.

Both recordings you post are a bit muffled for my taste. Maybe some eq cuts in the lows and low mids would take care of that. The room doesn't sound that great with those omnis.


One of my favorite choral recordings is an Eric Whitacre disc with the BYU singers. Check that out if you want to hear a large group of UNDERSTANDABLE singers! The tone is also perfect. A nice sense of space, but not too much verb; incredible dynamic range; warm sound without being muffled on top; incredible bass response without mud. Its called "Eric Whitacre: The Complete A Cappella Works, 1991 - 2001". Definitely check it out if you can! I'm pretty sure Mr. Whitacre himself produced the recordings.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by MaTr1x2051

One of my favorite choral recordings is an Eric Whitacre disc with the BYU singers. Check that out if you want to hear a large group of UNDERSTANDABLE singers! The tone is also perfect. A nice sense of space, but not too much verb; incredible dynamic range; warm sound without being muffled on top; incredible bass response without mud. Its called "Eric Whitacre: The Complete A Cappella Works, 1991 - 2001". Definitely check it out if you can! I'm pretty sure Mr. Whitacre himself produced the recordings.

Just goes to show you ... it's all a matter of taste! I really dislike the sound of the engineering on this recording... too much sssssibilance, level too hot for my taste (and this material), high noise floor in the venue. In general, too much of an in-your-face "pop" engineering sound to me. I agree the singing is divine and the acoustic pretty good, but I think it could have been so much better.

I really like the Polyphony stuff on Hyperion ... and the Shaw a cappella stuff on Telarc made in France (e.g. Rach Vespers) ... that's the gold standard of recorded choral sound to me.

Hyperion Records | Polyphony

Cheers!

[Corran]

Interesting, to hear differences in opinions on "reference" recordings.

I would like one good "perfect" recording for reference for all different kinds of ensembles (if such a thing were possible...I guess exactly what I want my stuff to sound like).

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Corran

mathieujm, I'm not sure what is going on - it was a 44/16 file when I converted it to mp3. Unless I did something unwittingly it should be 44/16 still. I think I changed the bit rate on the converter - I will change it back.

Thanks, the second version is 44.1k but 120kb/s. The bitrate is so low that we hear a lot of artefacts and I don't like this at all on choir. The max size of the samples is 6M, so you could have use a 220k/s bit rate which should have been better.

As is, I don't like the lack of naturalness. I also think the mix of condensers and ribons as main is the cause.

JMM

[joelpatterson]

Wooo, cool... I feel like I can hear the very core of the "teenagerness" of the singers, somehow, their struggle to give it their all and establish their own credibility.

(I also have this secret weakness for coughs from the audience. When they sound accurate and true-to-life, they put me right there in the middle of it all. I wonder if someone has ever come up with a gag choral piece that is all the singers coughing on cue or in time? Someone obviously has, somewhere.)

[maestro]

Chanticleer performing either Vaughan Williams "Loch Lomond" or Franz Biebl's "Ave Maria" are superb performances and recordings imo. Anyone know who engineered those?

[Corran]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

Thanks, the second version is 44.1k but 120kb/s. The bitrate is so low that we hear a lot of artefacts and I don't like this at all on choir. The max size of the samples is 6M, so you could have use a 220k/s bit rate which should have been better.

As is, I don't like the lack of naturalness. I also think the mix of condensers and ribons as main is the cause.

JMM

Just trying to save a little bandwidth...I know mp3s aren't always desirable but maybe in the future when it's not an issue to transfer 30mb quickly we can all switch over to sharing wavs.

Interesting to hear about the lack of naturalness. I found with one or the other pair the recording lacked something and together it just was better. Not sure what that effect could be. I swear I have heard people say they use a stereo ribbon with omni outriggers before (the room notwithstanding).