Williams' 3 card mic array - like Decca Tree

boojum · 19th March 2009

I do not have three nice omni's but do have the requisite cardioids. I have been wondering why I could not run them in a "sort of" Decca Tree. I find that Williams describes a series of three mic setups for cards, hyper-cards and hypo-cards, varying on the angle of the sound field's Stereo Recorded Angle (SRA). I am going to be trying this/these rig(s) and wonder has anyone here tried them. And if they have been tried by this august band, what were the results?

jnorman · 19th March 2009

you can certainly set up 3 cards in a decca tree arrangement. i have used pairs of cards as a spaced AB pair before with perfectly acceptable results. you will have poor mono compatibility, but that is not the biggest pole in the tent these days. cards will need to be placed a bit further out than you would place omnis.

RobAnderson · 19th March 2009

I think the first Decca Tree used cardioids.

The use of omni's came shortly thereafter, but the best omni's for Decca Tree tend to be directional at the higher frequencies.

boojum · 21st March 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I think the first Decca Tree used cardioids.

The use of omni's came shortly thereafter, but the best omni's for Decca Tree tend to be directional at the higher frequencies.

Rob, yeah, I ran across that in my research, and thought of running a card Decca Tree in the current configuration as used with omnis. But in reading Williams' book on mics I find he uses a much more compact array <nice!> which makes it easier to set up and handle. I will start a test recording a bluegrass jam on Monday. I would like to try some other tests and then I have a more "regular" session coming up with the musicians on a stage rather than seated around a table. If it is any kind of good I will then test it alongside of a pair of DPA 4006 TL's with the soft grids on them. The Schoeps Mk4's I will be using have a not-too-shabby bottom end (ask Plush) so I am very interested in this setup. It is also of interest as I see nothing about it. It could be that is because it is a lousy array. Or maybe not.

Anyone else played with the card Tree?

RobAnderson · 21st March 2009

It's an interesting idea.

It makes sense that the tree can be much closer together with cardiods than with omni's; not that a smaller tree of omni's can't work either. The spacing of the array has more to do with the size of the ensemble and/or sound stage than any exact formula I think.

I have always shied away from using three-mic main pickups for smaller ensembles, unless I am recording for surround because in the closer proximity I would think that there may be more propensity for the image to wander back and forth between mic's and more danger of mid-range coloration and comb filtering if the forward distance of the center mic is not quite right. Of course, I could be wrong since I have never attempted it.

I would be interested in hearing the results of your experiment.

boojum · 22nd March 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

It's an interesting idea.

It makes sense that the tree can be much closer together with cardiods than with omni's; not that a smaller tree of omni's can't work either. The spacing of the array has more to do with the size of the ensemble and/or sound stage than any exact formula I think.

I have always shied away from using three-mic main pickups for smaller ensembles, unless I am recording for surround because in the closer proximity I would think that there may be more propensity for the image to wander back and forth between mic's and more danger of mid-range coloration and comb filtering if the forward distance of the center mic is not quite right. Of course, I could be wrong since I have never attempted it.

I would be interested in hearing the results of your experiment.

We'll see about that. LOL

boojum · 26th March 2009

I have one recording of a bluegrass jam at a local American Legion hall this past Monday. I will have to give it some critical listening for "image wandering" and "mid-range coloration." And anything else weird. So far I like it. But first impressions and wishful thinking are two hazards here.

I am doing a recording this coming Saturday in a better venue with better musicians, bluegrass again, and will see how that works. I will also be getting a feed from the soundboard, but the sound man is not too hip and runs everything "straight up" so all the instruments are in mono. A month ago he had the phase inverted in one channel. That took me a while to figure out as I assumed he knew what he was doing and the mess was at my end.

I will post a couple of tracks next week.

Cheers

19th March 2009	#1
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,308 Thread Starter 1 Review written	Williams' 3 card mic array - like Decca Tree I do not have three nice omni's but do have the requisite cardioids. I have been wondering why I could not run them in a "sort of" Decca Tree. I find that Williams describes a series of three mic setups for cards, hyper-cards and hypo-cards, varying on the angle of the sound field's Stereo Recorded Angle (SRA). I am going to be trying this/these rig(s) and wonder has anyone here tried them. And if they have been tried by this august band, what were the results? __________________ Nov schmoz ka pop.

19th March 2009	#2
jnorman Lives for gear Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,807 2 Reviews written	you can certainly set up 3 cards in a decca tree arrangement. i have used pairs of cards as a spaced AB pair before with perfectly acceptable results. you will have poor mono compatibility, but that is not the biggest pole in the tent these days. cards will need to be placed a bit further out than you would place omnis. __________________ jnorman sunridge studios salem, oregon

19th March 2009	#3
RobAnderson Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2007 Location: NY New York a wonderful town Posts: 725 16 Reviews written	I think the first Decca Tree used cardioids. The use of omni's came shortly thereafter, but the best omni's for Decca Tree tend to be directional at the higher frequencies. __________________ "Everybody gets so much information all day long that they lose their common sense." - G. Stein 1946 The reputation of a thousand years may be determined by the conduct of one hour. - Japanese Proverb "Look into his face and hear the music of the ages. Don't pay too much attention to the sounds--for if you do, you may miss the music." - George Ives http://www.andersonsoundrecording.com

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21st March 2009	#5
RobAnderson Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2007 Location: NY New York a wonderful town Posts: 725 16 Reviews written	It's an interesting idea. It makes sense that the tree can be much closer together with cardiods than with omni's; not that a smaller tree of omni's can't work either. The spacing of the array has more to do with the size of the ensemble and/or sound stage than any exact formula I think. I have always shied away from using three-mic main pickups for smaller ensembles, unless I am recording for surround because in the closer proximity I would think that there may be more propensity for the image to wander back and forth between mic's and more danger of mid-range coloration and comb filtering if the forward distance of the center mic is not quite right. Of course, I could be wrong since I have never attempted it. I would be interested in hearing the results of your experiment.

26th March 2009	#7
boojum Lives for gear Joined: May 2007 Location: Astoria, OR, US&A Posts: 2,308 Thread Starter 1 Review written	I have one recording of a bluegrass jam at a local American Legion hall this past Monday. I will have to give it some critical listening for "image wandering" and "mid-range coloration." And anything else weird. So far I like it. But first impressions and wishful thinking are two hazards here. I am doing a recording this coming Saturday in a better venue with better musicians, bluegrass again, and will see how that works. I will also be getting a feed from the soundboard, but the sound man is not too hip and runs everything "straight up" so all the instruments are in mono. A month ago he had the phase inverted in one channel. That took me a while to figure out as I assumed he knew what he was doing and the mess was at my end. I will post a couple of tracks next week. Cheers