Live Recording Catastrophe

[smarsland]

So I am recording a live concert tonight with my set-up:

Schoeps MK21s >> Apogee MiniMP >> Apogee Mini-me >> MBox Pro via S/PDIF running on MacBookPro and Pro Tools LE 7.3.1 >> Glyph Portable Drive
with, in series via S/PDIF out:
Tascam CDRW2000 (so I can give my client an "on-the-spot" recording, and if anything messes up in Pro Tools I have a backup)

Mini-me is clocking at 44.1/16-bit

There was a short intermission so I did a little editing of beginnings and endings of the things that had been performed so far in the concert. I had time to do some light editing and then go back to recording. When I re-entered record mode I started getting these HORRIFIC pops and crackles (kinda like a clocking error sound).

I had no recourse. I couldnt stop recording, so I have these last 3 tracks with my enemies: Snap, Crackle, and Pop. Ok.... please help.. WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED?


I am utterly embarrassed by this turn of events. I can't fix it. All I can do is talk to you guys to find out what you think so I can prevent this from ever happening again. Is it because I did some editing or am I reading into this?

-s

[bishopthomas]

Did it come through on the CD as well? All may not be lost. There are some great plugins out there that might be able to clean up those noises (depending on how bad it is). Sorry I can't recommend anything in particular, but I'm sure others here can.

[joelpatterson]

Irrational, spiteful gremlins?

Your sequence of events sure makes it sound like the editing you did refocussed some element of the system and it wasn't ready to go back to plain ol' recording when you were.

Like some input parameter got jiggled, and it thought it should still be reading tracks when you wanted it to be reading input?

My after-the-horserace-handicapping would say a computer doing live recording is a very busy, precarious beast, best to do as little confusing it as possible. You've probably already written this on your dashboard with a Sharpie marker.

[willi1203]

Originally Posted by smarsland

in series via S/PDIF out:
Tascam CDRW2000 (so I can give my client an "on-the-spot" recording, and if anything messes up in Pro Tools I have a backup)-s

Are you sure the spdif out still run if a problem occurs in PT ?

[Sonic Lush]

Of all the different types of anxiety I've felt in my life, that particular feeling when a live recording goes bad catastrophe is very unique to me. and rather unpleasant.

kind of like the falling pit in my stomach is dropping down at mach two to meet the tightening up of my scrotal region and threatens to rupture into a black hole vortex of on the spot huge mistake vacuums whooshing in my ears.

maybe it's just me.

I don't have any advice, other than to offer unlikely hope that your backup was unaffected.

Joel's probably right about somehow knocking the delicate digital balance out of whack by just trying to work efficiently.

onward and upward.
peace,

walt.

[XLR2XLR]

Hi there, firstly do not be too hard on yourself, it has happenned to us all and will probably (despite back ups, happen again at some point)

kind of like the falling pit in my stomach is dropping down at mach two to meet the tightening up of my scrotal region and threatens to rupture into a black hole vortex of on the spot huge mistake vacuums whooshing in my ears.

If that does not convince people to run a back up I don't know what will !

I am going to run my pre's on a UPS as well for my next remote recording
so I have made a 4 way mains distro board with an IEC Male connector so I can
plug into my UPS and get back up for it.

I hope there is some recourse with a de clicker software.

[Adebar]

Did you check internal/external clocking in the hardware setup? To me it sounds like you have switched to internal clocking during the editing by - maybe by accindent.

After that in record mode the Mbox wasn´t slaved by the Apogee converter.

[uosdwis]

I've had some success removing nasty digital clicks with a very rudimentary Windows app called DeGlitch. Just thought I'd mention it.

[smarsland]

Yes.. I checked everything. Nothing had apparently changed. I had to wait until the first of the last three pieces ended to do it, because I didn't want to affect any processing (any worse than had already happened). The CD recording was slaved to the DIGI Pro, so it has errors also. :-(

[Sonic Lush]

Originally Posted by XLR2XLR

If that does not convince people to run a back up I don't know what will !

Living the big dream of remote recordist: maybe it's been just me, but in the past, I got gigs from friends before I had money for much gear (still don't) and so there was a basic system in place before there was a chance of any backup (even a crappy one). and boy, it did fail, more than once.

To circumvent what plagued the OP, it sounds as if he would need an ENTIRE redundant system with a clean clock source to avoid the dirty digital stream.

I don't know about him--I'm getting closer, but still not there.

maybe one of them less expensive stereo handhelds as a last ditch?

and to the OP, so crappy to hear your back up needed a back up.

hope you can mitigate this without losing $ or credibility.
peace,
walt

[bishopthomas]

The thing about backups is they need to be independent of the primary recorder. Clocking, chasing, or synching them together is not wise for the very reason shown here. Don't worry, I learned the hard way myself.

[Barriger]

This has happened to me a couple times. Luckily in our recording space, so not all was lost. The only way I could fix the error was to restart the computer. I think that I agree with joelpatterson that something refocused the processing.

In windows there's an option in the advanced performance settings for processor scheduling to prioritize "background services" over "programs". which I have read is the preferred setting for recording, as most of the processing occurs in the south bridge or dma controller. I could be wrong about this, and have no idea if there is an equivalent with apple OS... maybe something to do with this also?

[Shadow_7]

Did you physically move any of the hardware when you started editing? Loose and bad cables can show their stripes, mainly when moved or when in constant motion. Of course it could be something completely external to your rig. Outside lights came on, A/C kicked on, Ice machine kicked on, Jimmy got a new ham radio...

Although the IT guy in me says it's was something PC / OS related. An OS doesn't free up badly managed RAM at an application level, until that application is no longer running. So rebooting the system, or completely closing the app in question might have helped. Other things like network interfaces can interfere with audio interfaces, did you make a connection to the internet while playing? And other normally benign stuff, like windows automatic updates, McAfee automatic updates and such can cause issues. It's completely impossible to tell unless you can reproduce it at will and eliminate the variables one by one. Even a completely redundant backup could have had the same failure in that case IMO.

About the only safe thing you can guess at this point, is that you need to edit on a completely different machine than the one you're recording with. Or wait until after the recording is completely done before you introduce new variables. And strip down your PC so that only critical applications are running at the point of capture. Even something as benign as an image viewer can be automated to inventory your drive contents at a particular time of day and starve your PC of resources until it finishes. Was there a hardfast and odd time that it all started? 6:30pm on the nose? Did it arbitrarily stop after some time, or stay with it till the end. And other tell tell signs. I miss the paycheck of my former IT occupation, but that's about all I miss. I'm still a little jumpy when the phone rings...

[MaTr1x2051]

I agree... sounds like a lack of memory thing, rather than wrong clock. I've heard of PT running recordings with terrible clips and pops when errors are turned off.

I never run computer for on-location sessions. I always run a dedicated hardware unit. The very first location gig I did with a computer, I had major failures that had never happened in the studio. I vowed to never bring one with me on the road again. Always at least a 2 track, if not an HD24.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by XLR2XLR

Hi there, firstly do not be too hard on yourself, it has happenned to us all and will probably (despite back ups, happen again at some point)



If that does not convince people to run a back up I don't know what will !

I am going to run my pre's on a UPS as well for my next remote recording
so I have made a 4 way mains distro board with an IEC Male connector so I can
plug into my UPS and get back up for it.

I hope there is some recourse with a de clicker software.

It's true; this sort of problem has happened to many of us or will happen again to someone soon enough.

In any event, a backup is not a backup if the track count is equal to or more than the main recording system.
I'm not sure how you can say a stereo recording is a backup to a multitrack recording.

We run everything that is up stream to the recorders on a UPS.
It's a great way to confirm you have captured what they hired you to do in the first place.

At times it's necessary to also have (most) of the down stream devices on a UPS.

We have wired three to four IEC cables into one male Edison connector for our preamps and such.
It takes only one AC cable per rack to power all devices.

[smarsland]

ok... a memory thing is a plausible explanation... except.. ive been recording like this for over a year with no errors. what i failed to mention is that it happened last week too -- and just past halfway into the recording. so obviously, what i've learned is no more editing on the fly and i need a backup external of the main system.

questions...

is it possible to split a s/pdif signal? my gut says no. i hope im wrong.

can i blame digidesign for this problem?

if this is the direction i need to go (separate backup) what would you add to my little set-up?


im just mad because it has been working without issues for well over a year and now SOMETHING has changed but I don't know what it is.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by smarsland

im just mad because it has been working without issues for well over a year and now SOMETHING has changed but I don't know what it is.

The joy of computerized audio!

No, seriously, I can feel your pain!


/Peter

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Barriger

In windows there's an option in the advanced performance settings for processor scheduling to prioritize "background services" over "programs". which I have read is the preferred setting for recording, as most of the processing occurs in the south bridge or dma controller. I could be wrong about this, and have no idea if there is an equivalent with apple OS... maybe something to do with this also?

It's a basic tweak when you use ASIO driver because ASIO runs in the background and this switch gives more CPU ressources to it.

About the initial topic. Yes I am very anxious each time I hit the record button on my computer in live situations. I prepare with defragmenting my drive, closing all is not needed, disabling all the auto-update I can find, launching ProcessExplorer to detect what is using my precious computer ressources etc. And so I am relatively confident with my setup and had no real problem until now.

And... at the old time of tapes I lost some live recording with DAT eaten in the recorder !

JMM

[RobAnderson]

is it possible to split a s/pdif signal? my gut says no. i hope im wrong.

Actually a good friend of mine just uses an RCA Y-cable to split the SPDIF from his converters. I am not that brave, but he has never had a problem. You could also use a video distribution amplifier to split the SPDIF signal instead of a Y-cable.

I think the Mini-Me has an AES output as well, in which case one of these will convert it to SPDIF for your CD-recorder:

Hosa CDL313 Data Link: Coaxial (RCA) to AES/EBU (XLR) | Full Compass

I use this to convert the AES from my Mytek to SPDIF for my backup 2-TR which only has a SPDIF input and I have not had any problems with it.

[Barriger]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

Did you physically move any of the hardware when you started editing? Loose and bad cables can show their stripes, mainly when moved or when in constant motion. Of course it could be something completely external to your rig. Outside lights came on, A/C kicked on, Ice machine kicked on, Jimmy got a new ham radio...

Although the IT guy in me says it's was something PC / OS related. An OS doesn't free up badly managed RAM at an application level, until that application is no longer running. So rebooting the system, or completely closing the app in question might have helped. Other things like network interfaces can interfere with audio interfaces, did you make a connection to the internet while playing? And other normally benign stuff, like windows automatic updates, McAfee automatic updates and such can cause issues. It's completely impossible to tell unless you can reproduce it at will and eliminate the variables one by one. Even a completely redundant backup could have had the same failure in that case IMO.

About the only safe thing you can guess at this point, is that you need to edit on a completely different machine than the one you're recording with. Or wait until after the recording is completely done before you introduce new variables. And strip down your PC so that only critical applications are running at the point of capture. Even something as benign as an image viewer can be automated to inventory your drive contents at a particular time of day and starve your PC of resources until it finishes. Was there a hardfast and odd time that it all started? 6:30pm on the nose? Did it arbitrarily stop after some time, or stay with it till the end. And other tell tell signs. I miss the paycheck of my former IT occupation, but that's about all I miss. I'm still a little jumpy when the phone rings...

I'm an old IT guy as well! I always run stripped down windows for recording. I was still running win2000 last year until i built a new machine. And I disable ALL network related services and devices

I'm fairly certain that the problem in my case had to do with the # of effects I was running and a conflict with drivers. I was using Audition 2... probably another culprit.

[mixedupsteve]

Smarsland,
When you did the editing did you use the same audio device as the recording.
The reason I ask is that I had a recording turn out like this. I did the recording after using another device and all seemed well until I played it back. It turned out that the driver of the other device was still running. Apparently the Mac doesn't shut down the devices without rebooting.

[bishopthomas]

Barriger - I too use Audition and have had nothing but problems with it. I have never been able to record more than 30-45 minutes of 16-24 tracks before it crashes. And I don't run effects, turn off all other processing, etc. I upgraded to version 3 and tested it the other day. I recorded 24 tracks for 2 hours 45 minutes with no issues. Maybe it's stable enough now, but I'll NEVER trust it for live recording. By the way, version 3 has some MAJOR improvements that finally make it usuable for mixing for me.

[Barriger]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Barriger - I too use Audition and have had nothing but problems with it. I have never been able to record more than 30-45 minutes of 16-24 tracks before it crashes. And I don't run effects, turn off all other processing, etc. I upgraded to version 3 and tested it the other day. I recorded 24 tracks for 2 hours 45 minutes with no issues. Maybe it's stable enough now, but I'll NEVER trust it for live recording. By the way, version 3 has some MAJOR improvements that finally make it usuable for mixing for me.

I also have upgraded to 3.0! Loving it. There's an option from 2.0 called "correct drift" in recordings that I would use on 16 track recordings that was helpful, but a pain in the arse. for a 60 minute session it would take 3 hours to "correct the drift". What's your A/D interface? I'm using 2 Delta1010's

[smarsland]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I think the Mini-Me has an AES output as well...

OMG.. why the hell didn't I think of that? I need to find that damned AES adapter though.. not sure where that went. The TASCAM CDRW2000 has an AES in (I love this thing.. soooo versatile!). Thanks for the idea.

[smarsland]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Smarsland,
When you did the editing did you use the same audio device as the recording.
The reason I ask is that I had a recording turn out like this. I did the recording after using another device and all seemed well until I played it back. It turned out that the driver of the other device was still running. Apparently the Mac doesn't shut down the devices without rebooting.

Yes, Steve I did.. just on-board with PT 7.3.1

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by smarsland

OMG.. why the hell didn't I think of that? I need to find that damned AES adapter though.. not sure where that went. The TASCAM CDRW2000 has an AES in (I love this thing.. soooo versatile!). Thanks for the idea.

It's true -- CDRW2000 is my favorite CDR.
It's a shame Tascam desn't make it any longer.