Where do I go from here/What would you do first?

[Howie J]

Hey all,

Member for almost a year now...just started really reading and posting. No clue what took so long. This forum has been a great read. I guess I'm in that nebulous range of having a decent amount of experience for being 30 but a long way to go in many aspects. My "Roll Call is http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...e-call-10.html if you really want to read more.

Anyway, my new gig has me recording about 25+ choral, orchestra. and wind ensemble concerts a year, mostly HS level with some guest pro ensembles. Anyway, I'm planning for the future of upgrades and trying to figure what would help my current rig the most. Here is what I'm working with. This list is both my equipment, the school's, or that I can get my hands on quick.

Mics: Pairs of AT 3031's, 3032's, 4050's, 414's, KSM 109's, C1000's Studio Projects B3's and a plethora of dynamic live stuff.

Pre's/comps/interfaces: ART Dual Tube pre, Presonus D8, FMR RNC (2), 002R, Focusrite Octopre in emergencies.

I run PTLE 8 on two more than capable macs.

My assesment: The D8 has a place in rock drum micing...no place in classical, but the ADAT gives me the inputs I need right now. The ART does OK and the RNC's for the price earn their keep. What I need is upgraded front end pres/converters?. Ideas?

Mic's on the wish list: Royer SF-24 and 122, DPA 4006's or Schoeps pair and another two or so LDC's for large spot mics possibly.

I might have to post some clips I've recorded this year for a group beati...err critique.

I'll build this one piece at a time, but am trying to plan it out. Just dropped $1200 on a pair of JBL LSR4328P monitors, so I'm back to save mode for a couple months.

Howie J

P.S. I'm doing a actual "session" with our WE for a professional composer that we commissioned a piece for in May. That will be a good challenge.

[Corran]

One good multi-pattern SDC pair and one good set of pres for classical work would really be a boon.

Your "wishlist" has plenty of expensive stuff, but if you had that kind of money it wouldn't be a wish. So, if I were you and had that many important gigs, I'd probably get a Sytek 4-channel pre and one or two sets of either the Oktava 012s with cardioid and omni caps or the Shure KSM 141s with switchable patterns. That should get you a good part of the way in either good or bad rooms. Should be about $1200-$1700 used (one or two pairs).

my 2c

[Howie J]

Good point on the "wish" list. I guess I should say...to be purchased in the next budget cycles. I appreciate the suggestions. FWIW, the mics I've been using respond fairly well for what they are. I have the space set up so I use the Omnis as overhead/spot mics for the middle/back of the groups, the AT cards in an XY pair just above and behind the conductor and the 4050's as a spaced pair hanging off the catwalk a little ways out in the house.

I guess my frustration has been with the pres. That and a backup. Using a finicky Marantz CDR631. Looking into a Sound Devices 722 or Korg MR-1000. Done with making coasters. The teachers like instant feedback from the concerts so...we'll see.

Howie J

[Corran]

Well you could get a Mackie 800r for 8 more good pres at about the price of the Sytek instead, and run the mics you have. I prefer SDCs for main pair stuff but if it works, it works.

MR-1000 would not be a bad investment. If you want to multi-track an HD24 would be a really good investment, or a computer interface but I'm less fond of that solution personally.

[Howie J]

I've heard a lot of people throw those Mackie 800's out there. Are they that good?? Every time "Mackie" and "pre" come together in a sentence I think of our old 32/4 at work and my 1202 VLZ I have lying around that are noisy as hell.

I think the Korg or some type of two track is in the plans for next year. The multitrack would be a little overkill for what I need, but nice to have a multitrack backup. Probably find a respectable one second hand.

Howie J

[bishopthomas]

I've never used the 800r but I've owned a 1640 mixer that uses the (I assume) same Onyx pres. They are miles better than the old SR series pres but I'm not sure there's any better than any other Firewire interface that's out there. For the money you can do better feature-wise (although the Mackie does have a built-in MS decoder).

[Corran]

I honestly haven't used them but thought they might be a good fit for what you need.

I just got a Sytek preamp and I can't recommend it enough though. I just didn't know if 4 channels are enough good channels for you.

[MaTr1x2051]

Like was said, you should be looking for a good pair of SDCs (preferably interchangable capsules) and a good 2 channel pre. DPA 4006s are great mikes, but not interchangable. I'd go the Schoeps route and get the standard cardioid and omni caps. I know they are expensive, but well worth it!

As for pres... Grace Designs and True Systems are great for classical. For about $1000 you can get two channels of either. On a higher budget you're looking at Millenia, Massenburg, etc. I'd really consider getting the P-Solo from True or M102 from Grace. 2 of the Graces can be rackmounted side by side... don't know about the True. But both sound really great. Some say too clean, or too transparent... but in the classical business that kind of what you're going for.

You'll be really happy with the JBL monitors... however you might want to look into the sub for the system as well. I run the 4326s. They really only produce down to around 100Hz accurately, and there's quite a bit of stuff that goes on lower than that. The eights will be better, but you still might consider needing more low-end.

Don't go with pres on a small board. Don't go with cheap mikes. You will be much happier if you save and get the right stuff for the job. You already have things to work with, its not like you're starting from scratch. Look into the Schoeps and pres. You won't be disappointed.

[Howie J]

I do like the idea of exchangeable capsules on the Schoeps. I had a chance to use a pair once when I was helping a friend out who uses them. Quite a difference. I try not to think about it when I put my little AT's up.

You're referring to the CMC series correct?? I was doing a little searching around for them last night. I just have to do my homework on the capsule/amplifier combos. I know there are some posts on it here somewhere.

I'll take a look at the True and Grace stuff. On a somewhat related note, are things like Neve porticos or API's and the like a little too colored for classical?? I have found "warm" to be dangerous and depending on the room, can accent certain room tendencies. (I'm not in Orchestra Hall here..nice, but not quite)

I love the 4328's so far. Only had them for three days. The 4312 sub is on the list of future purchases when I expand my room. The school I work for is on spring break so I've been spending my time mixing (or re-mixing) and practicing all week. (gotta keep the trumpet chops up to pay for all this stuff.) Not to mention reading online.

I've looked at some of the remote/classical guys who post on here and I know what I have to aspire to. I was lucky to work and talk a little with the guys who record the MN Orchestra and St. Paul Chamber Orch last summer for a short time through an internship. I got a taste of what the professional level is for sure. Lookin' forward to absorbing and hopefully can give something back somewhere around here.

Thanks...and keep it comin'

Howie J

[MaTr1x2051]

Yes, the CMC series with the MK2 and MK4 capsules. MK2 is the standard flat omni, and the MK4 is the standard flat cardioid. I wouldn't get the more specialized capsules until you know exactly the situations you'd need them for. I don't own them personally, but working with them is a true pleasure. The sound doesn't need anything to make it convincing and natural. I can't quite say the same about the KM184s that I own. After working with Schoeps, the Neumann color is starting to piss me off when working classically.

Personally, I'd stay away from 'color' pres in classical. The KM184s are only a tad colored, but its still almost too much for my taste. If you're doing the occassional solo instrument where you know exactly the mike and pre combo you want for the tone, then go for it... whatever it might be. But if you're not sure or haven't heard them in context already, all I can say is, be careful. Your mike, pre, and placement choices will all effect the tone much more than you can change later. I've never used Neve or API on classical stuff... and I don't know anyone who has I haven't heard great things about the Portico stuff either. Never used it tho. API gear I have used, but again not on classical. Great sounding stuff, and actually pretty transparent I'd say... then again, how much transparency can you tell when tracking drums?? That's really all I've used API on.

I bought my Neumanns because I couldn't afford Schoeps. They are great mikes definitely, and I use them for more than just classical. But I can't wait to get the Schoeps I'm telling you about. They are just that good.

On the JBLs, I've found that I don't like having the room correction on. The monitors sound more natural without it, as long as your room is decent. Just side note...

[Howie J]

OK, one more mic question then on the Schoeps for those of you who use them. CMC 5? or CMC 6? Are there that many units that require the 12V? Pricing seems to be constant, and just a little different in the low, low end.

Sooooo,

2 CMC 6 amplifiers, 2 MK2 caps, 2 MK4 caps. Around 5k+ no matter which way you do it.

Howie J

[BLP]

First off, welcome to the fold, Howie! There are fun times to be had around the Remotester's forum on GS. But now, down to business...

Originally Posted by Howie J

I'll take a look at the True and Grace stuff. On a somewhat related note, are things like Neve porticos or API's and the like a little too colored for classical?? I have found "warm" to be dangerous and depending on the room, can accent certain room tendencies. (I'm not in Orchestra Hall here..nice, but not quite)

I think the Grace m101's are a steal! Nice, clean and compact (two in a single space). (Also, you might want to look at the older m201's. There appears to be one used on VK for $1300...) The True Precision8 is a killer deal as well, if you're looking for that many channels. I love me some API for studio work, and it can work for classical, but it wouldn't be my go-to if I had the Grace, True, etc. available.

OK, one more mic question then on the Schoeps for those of you who use them. CMC 5? or CMC 6? Are there that many units that require the 12V? Pricing seems to be constant, and just a little different in the low, low end... 2 CMC 6 amplifiers, 2 MK2 caps, 2 MK4 caps. Around 5k+ no matter which way you do it.

I'm a CMC 6 guy, myself. I've not run into issues with not having 12V support. As for the capsules, if you're looking at a first pair of caps with more later, I'd seriously consider the MK21's. They'll work a bit better as a main pair than the MK4's (if I can slander my own gear ), but can still pull off cardioid duties.

Anyways, I hope some (or any) of that helps!

[MaTr1x2051]

CMC6

MK21s look interesting. I haven't gotten to use them. But they can function as cardioid without too much proximity effect if needed for close miking. Only down to 50Hz though (if these were to 'substitute' for omnis).

Again I've never used them... but with the wide pattern I wouldn't know what kind of stereo image to expect with XY and ORTF arrangements. I might consider them over a standard MK4, but only if I could compare the two side by side. I definitely wouldn't take them over the MK2s.

Good to hear positive thoughts on the True pres! For some time I've wondered who else out there use them!

[Howie J]

Thanks for the welcome and info. I've always fancied myself more of a classical recording guy even when I was in school for recording doing the rock stuff that we were all taught. Lo and behold I got a job that pays me to do it with time to promote my own biz too. Cramming mics in front of guitar cabs doesn't do it for me like a full size orchestra kickin' into Mahler or Bruckner, a Steinway Grand just filling the room, or choir and organ filling a cathedral.

I have a friend who is part of a location recording company and I used to subcontract for them. They have the CMC/MK2 pair. I might see if they will rent them out for this commissioned gig in May.

Brett, I saw the True Precision 8 earlier today. 8 channels would be great. Right now I try and make sure I have one solid (relatively speaking) stereo path and then supplement with the gear I mentioned before. (D8 via ADAT and the 002 pres) One of the guys I worked with last summer used the ATI 8mx2's. Had a good rep around the station for good results. Seems they aren't as easy to find these days?? Plus from reading here they have a distinct sound to them. Whether you like that or not...

I'm working with my web designer tomorrow to update my site. I'll put see if I can get some recent stuff up to get some opinions on what I've done this year.

Howie J