Which orchestral mic and preamp setup should I use?

[VARIETE'S ACTOR]

Hi guys.... Sorry if this thread is already created...
I'm part of a new project in a big studio and they r still buying gear and mics...

My question it's about the mics and preamps

what mics (body and capsules in some cases) would be "great" for scoring/orchestral (i suppose that i must think in a complete orchestra....)

and of course which preamps....

In the case of microphones, i would like to know which modern mics... Not vintage things.... At least by now....

Thanks....

[Corran]

Budget?

There's 1001 different suggestions. For the high budget the usual suspects include Schoeps, Sennheiser, DPA, and some others. Mid to high would be Earthworks, Beyer, Shure, etc., and low to mid would be Oktava, Rode, MXL, etc. ad infinitum.

Preamps, sheesh from high to low, Grace, Millenia, Earthworks, True Systems, Sytek, well I can't think of anymore off-hand at 6am but you get the idea.

There is a lot of great threads here...do some searching and I'm sure you'll find something that fits your needs.

You mentioned scoring, which when I hear that I think movies for some reason. Is that correct?

[VARIETE'S ACTOR]

hi.... yes sorry... i write scoring thinking in music for films, and if necessary some foleys....

in the case of preamps there is just a 8 channel Millenia and 4 units of Digidesign PRE.
And an ICON as mixing surface (the board is not a theme right now)
But i think that they need another kind of Preamps.... not the DIGIs... when i ask for pres, i think not in APIs or summit or avalon or manley but yes in things like Millenia or GML or John hardy stuff...but my knowledge about pres is not so big.... that is almost the same thing to mics...
This people has to buy a big bag of new mics and of course i think in brands like neumman, earthworks, sennheisser, DPA, AEA (re editions), beyer, some AKG... but in the case of DPA (i.e) the list of products it's so long that i can't make a "wish list" to this people for things to buy...
so...
the budget is high, but not unlimited... and i must think in an orchestra from common setups to complex setups (i think this like focusing in some instruments like woods or soloist in the middle of maybe 50 or 60 guys playng together, and of course percussion section)...
look the room pic
THE FIRST(S) PICS SHOW THE ISO. WHICH IS PRETTY COOL MAYBE I CAN PUT UNTIL 6 GUYS PLAYING OR A BIG DRUMS AND THE (VERY) LIVE ROOM SPEAK FOR ITSELF ....

THANKS


CHEERS..

MARTIN

[joelpatterson]

But then if the "scoring" he's talking about has to do with candlelight and satin sheets, then the gear they get had better be pretty damn good!

EDIT: seeing the pics of the rooms, you are well on your way....

[fifthcircle]

Nice looking room... Where are you located?

When it comes to scoring work- you should look at it in one of a couple ways. Does it pay to have a huge first-rate rig or do you want to rely on rentals? Depending on where you are working, that should do a lot to answer your question. Here in LA, most of the studios have decent rigs, but when it comes to much of the mic and preamp choice, the engineers bring in their preference and then charge the rental to the client. In smaller markets, you should count on providing everything.

That being said, for mics:

An assortment of Schoeps- CMC 6 bodies with MK2, MK2H, MK21, MK4 and MK41 capsules. perhaps some of the 222 bodies (3 for a decca tree with 2H caps and spheres would be a great start)
Neumann KM140, perhaps some of the newer tube mics- ie M150, 149, large diaphragm solid state- U87/89, TLM 170, TLM 193
Sennheiser MKH 20/40/800, 8020/8040
DPA- 4011, 4006TL, 4003 (if you have the high voltage pres)
Ribbons- pairs (at least) of Coles, AEA R84, Royer 122 (the tube versions are amazing too), etc...
Pehaps some vintage tube mics as well...
I would also have some quality dynamics as well, Sennheiser 441, 421, Beyer M88, etc...


Then depending on budget- some lower end "utility" mics. These can include things like AT4050, Shure KSM44, AKG 414 and similar...

For pres- once again an assortment.

Will they be on the floor with control from the control room needed? (likely). In that case, the remote controlled versions of Millennia or Grace would be a very good thing to have a lot of.

I would also balance the clear with an assortment of more colored stuff- API and Neve are the big names that would draw folks in, but you could also add many of the great boutique manufactures out there. A Designs, Great River, Hardy, Chandler, Crane Song, etc... There are tons of great pres out there- all have their uses.

I would also add an assortment of DI's to the rig as well. I like a lot of the tube ones out there (of the ones in production that I really like, A Designs and Demeter make some great tube DIs), but once again there are lots of choices.

In general, if I were booking a studio for this kind of work, I would want to see the gear to do a 48 track recording. It should be able to do the clear/transparent side of things- especially for main mics, strings, etc... You should also have the colored stuff for the jazz-based scores, rhythm sections, etc... that will be coming in.

Oh well... I've rambled long enough. These are the things I look for in studios that I hire. Good luck. Sounds like a fun job to put this all together.

--Ben

[VARIETE'S ACTOR]

Hi.... Again... The studio it's recently opening and still is in "test stage"(?) (sorry for my english)
and it's located in argentina
the place have another studio, more for popular music (rock, pop, jazz, latin, etc) and it's already complete (mics, pres, comps, eq, etc...)
this room it's mostly to classical because in this state near of this place there is a film studio, and this was created to complete the films with the music thing...

Without count that this control room has few pre, both controls are exactly the same, just that this has:

Icon (with d-main and 2 d-fader... The other control has just 1 d-fader)
4 digidesign pre
8 channels of millenia
2 avalon compressors (don't remember the numbers)
manley voxbox
manley eq (pultec type) stereo
fatso
distressor with british
pt hd3 v 7.4 (3 x 192)
there is preamps, but the idea it is get modern cool real pres, we don't like the idea of record an album with 32 channels of digipre and just 8 channel of millenia, and if this people going to buy some nice preamps we want to configure this room, more than anything for classical music and of course jazz and mostly acoustic music...

Thanks a lot!!!! Everybody!!

Martin

[klaukholm]

Take a look at our equipment page, we designed our setup as a very standard scoring setup.

I would have 3 each of Neumann M150 and TLM50.
That way you always have one mic left as a backup when using a decca and outriggers, while getting the slightly different flavour of these very standard orchestral mics.

three or four TLM50 or DPA4003/6 for rear surround is a very safe bet.

I would aim for 8 each of TLM170, U87ai, mkh8040, MK4/mk4v,dpa 4011/4012, km184.
A few coles 4038, RCA44BX, Royer SF1.

This should get you started nicely.

For preamps, scoring clients want well known brands. Safe bets are a mix of Millennia and Grace, preferrably remote controlles ones.

A solid wind-up stand with wheels and a very stiff and sturdy decca tree.
My favourite is the avenger B150 with the junior boom as long as it is not for location work.
I would have a custom tree made of greater stiffness than the AEA (which we use), but with the same quick adjustability.

[Adebar]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

That being said, for mics:

An assortment of Schoeps- CMC 6 bodies with MK2, MK2H, MK21, MK4 and MK41 capsules. perhaps some of the 222 bodies (3 for a decca tree with 2H caps and spheres would be a great start)
Neumann KM140, perhaps some of the newer tube mics- ie M150, 149, large diaphragm solid state- U87/89, TLM 170, TLM 193
Sennheiser MKH 20/40/800, 8020/8040
DPA- 4011, 4006TL, 4003 (if you have the high voltage pres)
Ribbons- pairs (at least) of Coles, AEA R84, Royer 122 (the tube versions are amazing too), etc...

To that list I would add the Josephson C617SET as a real alternative to SD mics like DPA.


As Preamp the Forssell is great on the clean side and compare that with the Grace or Millennia before.

[VARIETE'S ACTOR]

For preamps, scoring clients want well known brands. Safe bets are a mix of Millennia and Grace, preferrably remote controlles ones.

WHICH IS THE REASON FOR THE "REMOTE CONTROLLES ONES"?

[fifthcircle]

So the engineer can change the gain of the preamps that are sitting on the scoring stage without having to leave the chair in the sweet spot of the monitors. Most acoustic music engineers place the pres on site of the recording and run line level to converters in the control room/DAW. It is a pain to run in to the room and a remote control saves either having to call somebody else to change levels or a loss of concentration when you change them yourself.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Time is money in a big way on these sessions.
It is really nice to have the gain at your fingertips in protools, or with a remote control unit.

[Roland]

What I can't understand is why Varietes Actor is asking for this information. Surely someone who is in a position to own and run such a studio know's what equipment they need? As a composer this strikes me as a little knowledge being extremely dangerous, what does he propse doing? Going into the studio and telling them these are the mic's he expects to see or he's not hiring? Nice as the space looks, there is no indication as to how it sounds, or if it really is suitable for scoring sessions.

The whole set-up sounds very amateurish to me, IMHO when this amount of money is concerned either someone who really knows what they are doing is involved or the whole thing blows on the first session after it becomes a major cock-up. Of course YMMV.


Roland

[klaukholm]

Roland, I hear you and can't argue with what you are saying.
I don't know what is going on in south america, maybe it's the next cheap place to go as prague is so booked and getting more expensive.
We just got a request for a two week rental of our entire mic rig to mexico from a respected client, so something is happening down there.
The question for me is not if they have the equipment, it is what do the players sound like? Surely not british quality.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Roland, I hear you and can't argue with what you are saying.
I don't know what is going on in south america, maybe it's the next cheap place to go as prague is so booked and getting more expensive.
We just got a request for a two week rental of our entire mic rig to mexico from a respected client, so something is happening down there.
The question for me is not if they have the equipment, it is what do the players sound like? Surely not british quality.

With all the work that went to Prague and other places, when the real costs were seen (added recording time, more rehearsal's, etc) much of the work has come back. With the pound against other currencies and the session rates in London at the moment it's looking quite cheap over here now.

Regards


Roland

[VARIETE'S ACTOR]

What I can't understand is why Varietes Actor is asking for this information. Surely someone who is in a position to own and run such a studio know's what equipment they need? As a composer this strikes me as a little knowledge being extremely dangerous, what does he propse doing? Going into the studio and telling them these are the mic's he expects to see or he's not hiring? Nice as the space looks, there is no indication as to how it sounds, or if it really is suitable for scoring sessions.

The whole set-up sounds very amateurish to me, IMHO when this amount of money is concerned either someone who really knows what they are doing is involved or the whole thing blows on the first session after it becomes a major cock-up. Of course YMMV.


Roland

HI: THIS THREAD WAS OPEN BECAUSE... IN SOME POINTS IT'S RIGHT... I NEVER WAS IN A BIG STUDIO LIKE THIS... I DON'T KNOW IF THE OWNERS CALL ME IN THE FUTURE TO WORK LIKE ENGINEER, BUT THE POINT IS THAT THEY CALL ME IN THESE DAYS FOR AN ADVISING IN THE GEAR LIST... SO I PREFER TO ASK WHAT MICS OR PRES WOULD YOU USE BEFORE THAT TO DO BAD PURCHASES....

AND OF COURSE LIKE klaukholm SAYS, MAYBE THIS PLACE WILL BE A CHEAPER PLACE IN SOUTH AMERICA TO MAKE ORCHESTRAL RECORDS...
NOBODY PRETENDS THAT THIS PLACE SOUNDS LIKE CONCERTS HALLS AND BIG OLD RECORDING CLASSICS STUDIOS, BUT IF THEY CAN BUY THE RIGHT EQUIPMENT, CAN BE A NICE OPTIONS FOR EVERYBODY...
BESIDES IN THIS STATE OF ARGENTINA NEAR OF THIS TOWN THERE'S A FILM STUDIO. THE ORIGINAL PROJECT OF THIS STUDIO WAS COMPLETE ALL OR BIG PART OF THAT MOVIES.... (I THINK THAT I'M REPEATING THIS)

OK.... THANKS EVERYBODY.... WHEN I GOT NEWS OF THIS STUDIO OR WHEN THEY CALL ME TO WORK THERE YOU WILL NOTICED....

THANKS A LOT!!!!
CHEERS FROM THIS "GAUCHO"...
MARTIN!!

[Remoteness]

Very cool Martin, but is it necessary for you to be shouting out your words?

All CAPS implies that you are shouting and I don't think you want to do that.

Thanks!

[VARIETE'S ACTOR]

uhhh!!! sorry... i don't think like that... I'll try to write like that

SORRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!
JAJA

cheers!!
MARTIN

[Remoteness]

No Problem at all

[Roland]

Originally Posted by VARIETE'S ACTOR

HI: THIS THREAD WAS OPEN BECAUSE... IN SOME POINTS IT'S RIGHT... I NEVER WAS IN A BIG STUDIO LIKE THIS... I DON'T KNOW IF THE OWNERS CALL ME IN THE FUTURE TO WORK LIKE ENGINEER, BUT THE POINT IS THAT THEY CALL ME IN THESE DAYS FOR AN ADVISING IN THE GEAR LIST... SO I PREFER TO ASK WHAT MICS OR PRES WOULD YOU USE BEFORE THAT TO DO BAD PURCHASES....

AND OF COURSE LIKE klaukholm SAYS, MAYBE THIS PLACE WILL BE A CHEAPER PLACE IN SOUTH AMERICA TO MAKE ORCHESTRAL RECORDS...
NOBODY PRETENDS THAT THIS PLACE SOUNDS LIKE CONCERTS HALLS AND BIG OLD RECORDING CLASSICS STUDIOS, BUT IF THEY CAN BUY THE RIGHT EQUIPMENT, CAN BE A NICE OPTIONS FOR EVERYBODY...
BESIDES IN THIS STATE OF ARGENTINA NEAR OF THIS TOWN THERE'S A FILM STUDIO. THE ORIGINAL PROJECT OF THIS STUDIO WAS COMPLETE ALL OR BIG PART OF THAT MOVIES.... (I THINK THAT I'M REPEATING THIS)

OK.... THANKS EVERYBODY.... WHEN I GOT NEWS OF THIS STUDIO OR WHEN THEY CALL ME TO WORK THERE YOU WILL NOTICED....

THANKS A LOT!!!!
CHEERS FROM THIS "GAUCHO"...
MARTIN!!

My point is that if you don't know yourself what gear would work best, going into an internet forum and taking advice that you are going to pass off as your own recommendations is a mistake. With the greatest respect, although there are many knowledgeable people whom frequent these forums how do you know which advice is good and bad? Even amongst those that do really know so many other factors count such as the room and the type of orchestral sessions that are likely to be attracted by the studio and facilities.

Possibly the studio might get one of these sessions, they might even call you to engineer it, but what happens when you turn up with all the gear, your knowledge of composition and arrangement, but without the knowledge to position the mic's, balance them appropriately and run the session.

There is plenty of gear on the market capable of doing the work you are talking about, but a lot less people with the knowledge of how to use that to the best effect. As a composer and arranger you should be very aware of this, and if you want your music to sound the best (assuming that it is you composing/arranging,) you would be well served by getting an expert engineer to come and do the sessions for you. In the scheme of things, the cost of a top pro engineer will be minimal in comparison with the cost of the studio/musicians. For a simple comparison, you wouldn't record a film score with amateur players against pro players would you? I would suggest IMHO that it's the same thing.

Regards


Roland

[opegas]

This is a real challenge. I would think if you had the same composer, musicians, music and room, several different scoring mixers would choose different mics. Many of them here in the states use their own anyway and rent to the session.
That said a good engineer could make a great recording with any of the suggestions already made.

Good luck. South America is really a happening place. So many wonderful countries, and the music....oh so good. I have'nt heard many film scores done there. I am going to have to get some movies.

Paul

[VARIETE'S ACTOR]

Hi Roland: One more time... i don't know if they're going to call me for recordings, the real thing is that they ask me for a "purchase list".

SO... besides this forum is not the only place i look for this info... i chek engineers interviews, big recording studios for classical and popular and when i can, i have a real life too, i ask engineers face to face. So maybe i don't know about the practice of choose a kind of mic or pre, for this kind of session, but i'm learning about what mic or what pre would be choosen for this music to people that have more experience than me...

NOTE: maybe don't be a great musician, composer, director, engineer, arranger or whatever, but yes, i work with little groups of string sections, big percussion bands and with a 43 players orchestra.... in each session i could learn more things... and with this thread want to know which way must take to explore... the limit is that is not my money to spend... is that clear?

Paul:
Of course that is a challenge... and the first studio have so many good mics, but mostly for popular music. and they are buying some pres, eqs and compressors. the goal is to separate the studios by some equipment and kind of music... that include preamps, compressors, eqs and mics.
So i would like to make everyone happy (owners, engineers, me, producers, players, arrangers, composers, public....) so i thanks to everybody that reply this thread ....

thanks a lot!!
MARTIN

[Roland]

Martin I wish you all the luck, however, this reminds me of the old recording joke:

How do you make a small fortune in the recording studio business.

Answer:

Start with a larger one!


Roland

[NoEgo]

Check out Forssell preamps.. They are impeccable!!!!!!

[Teddy Ray]

Pendulum MDP-1 and DAV preamps are what I use(both of those are widely used, search will be very fruitful). I am younger and have only been *recording* for about 5-6 years now(ive been a professional musician(singer) for much longer, on the *other side* of the baton), but I prefer the sound with some "sweetening" as it sounds more like music to me. With these preamps, this "sweetness" does not come at the expense of any important detail, in my opinion. A lot of This "modern" classical sound , (what I have identified as everything in your face, loads of detail "too much, too there, too loud?" and somehow "inhuman" )leaves me a bit cold so I choose my recording gear with this in mind. I really love Ribbon and Tube microphones(and preamps), for acoustic recording. The sound can be pure bliss. Tacet records, Opus 3 and MA Recordings have *the* sound, in my opinion..anyway, sorry to rant.


I will second the Gefell mk221 with josephson c617s. Quite amazing.

some samples are here

[thedoner]

Originally Posted by VARIETE'S ACTOR

WHICH IS THE REASON FOR THE "REMOTE CONTROLLES ONES"?

Hi Martin.
Your room looks amazing!
If you're in the market for high end remote control pres, my friend at Prodigy Engineering builds a beautiful 8ch. unit. It works on the same protocol as the Digi PRE, has a 130v option for DPA's, and sounds wonderful. Well worth a look.
Prodigy Engineering - Designing the Finest in Professional Audio Recording
Best,
-GD

[Enlightened Hand]

I've seen that studio before and I don't think it's in Argentina.

Liz

[wrekdahouse]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

I've seen that studio before and I don't think it's in Argentina.

Liz

Hello Enlightened, where do you think that studio you have been or seen before is located, and why do you think Martin should be lying to the world about this ? tutt
indeed the studio Martin is talking about is located in San Luis, a province of Argentina and was made by the local government as part of the "Music Program" to encourage local artists, and also was given to Sony-BMG to run it for a lot of years, to make records of sony-bmg bands from all around the world. they already did "El canto del Loco" a spanish pop-rock band that seems to be a big hit right now over europe.
The studio is part of a program that San Luis province started several years ago with the "Film Program", they did the same state of the art facilities for film making to encourage local film industry. this whole complex is located in the center-west of our country, a good move to des-centralize the market that is actually happening most in buenos aires, the capital of argentina. the whole thing isnt supposed to bring a lot of cash in, but yes to support artists and the grow of culture and bring in artists.
the complex of the recording studio also involves another twin control room like the one of the scoring room, with another live room also very big, two more C and D studios for post-production and overdubs, 3 movie theaters (i cant understand why!?) the whole complex is like a big neighbourhood with facilities for the artists, hotels, recreation spaces... almost ridiculous.

here are some links with pictures of the studio and further information (in spanish)

Galería de Imágenes
Sony BMG administrara San Luis Musica. | Inforo

regardsss

Patricio

[Enlightened Hand]

That's the thing, I don't know for sure where, but I swear I've seen that studio before. It's the live room that's so distinct to me. I can't say for certain where it's from. I just don't think I've seen it in Argentina. I don't know Martin or anything about his agenda. All I know is that I've seen that place before and I can't quite place it right now. What's the name of that studio? Because the one I've seen I think was in California. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it just looks like one that I've seen.

Liz

[wrekdahouse]

Hello, maybe both studios were done by the same guy. it could be a posibility, given that the guy that did the design of the studios at San Luis is a very respected acoustic and studio designer, from MBR Group, who designed top class studios all around the world. that wouldnt surprise me at all. it may look like any other studio in the world. i think the whole complex is called "Molino Fenix" from San Luis Musica, if that rings a bell to you.
one thing i can speak for Martin is that the studio he showed in the pictures for sure is the studio over here in Argentina.
the guys at San Luis claim that the studio they built ranks fourth on i dont know what world studios list, and i also dont know which parameters they used to get those numbers, maybe money investment, or magnitude of the facilities. one thing i can tell is that the thing is very very big. i have never seen anything like this before. and free for local artists ! there is this law that promotes the development and growth of the music as an instrument for social-cultural integration. these facilities are supposed to give jobs to hundreds of people, not only audio engineers or composers, thats the whole idea. these guys really know how to manage that province, given the pitiful situation of our country.
sory for the off-topic trail, but just wanted to clear up some things.

this one is from the mix mag,
Studio Name: San Luis Musica
Location: Provincia de San Luis, Argentina
Designer: Mariano Rodriguez/MBR Design Group

Equipment: Four Digidesign Pro Tools HD3 Accel systems, two Digidesign ICON consoles.

Description: San Luis Musica is a 6,500-square-foot facility that includes two recording studios, plus two separate edit rooms with iso booth. This striking music recording studio is reportedly the biggest audio facility in Argentina.

Class of 2008 Runner Ups | More Professional Audio Studios From the Class of 2008

regardss

Patricio

[7rojo7]

I'm curious, what's the name and how can they be contacted, I would send them my resume caus things are pretty rough here. I'm looking for new experiences, and a community that sponsors a project like this is to be admired, one would be honored to take part in such a venture.
The movie theaters there could be used to mix to film (dubbing stge) with a regular theater sound system in conjunction to a hi fidelity mixing minitor, instant reality check.
I've owned Millennia and have used just about everything else, I like to keep the sound of the mic as natural as possible and change the sound of the instrument or the position of the mic instead of going for the glory through the pre. I also like to have many of the same pre instead of a hodge podge, except for special cases vocals or solo, spot tracks. If they don't have a console already, this is what I would recommend, you can't beat it for mixing or signal routing or for having backups. For huge sessions I would even adopt the classic monitor mixer with split line out to a monitor mixer and one to tape. One engineer is in charge of monitors and in the studio with the orchestra, this way the recording engineer crew can concentrate only on the recording. A lot of one ear cans
I really like Brauner mics and Schoeps, they're very musical. I have a pair of VM-1s, a pair of Valvets, 3 PhantomV, 3CCM21 and 3 CCM5 all through Millennia and have made some very nice recordings
Vintage gear will get you vintage sounds, ribbon mics with tube pre's were used in many early film scores recorded by RCA or Western Electric as you can see in the credits of many old films, to get this sound you would use their old techniques, not just old gear
Compression in the tracking stage, tried it, left it there, now you don't have to worry about tape noise, before you had to arc weld a signal to tape. You can concentrate better after you have some good takes.
In some respects I agree with those who suggest you consult with a professional engineer, besides those on these forums, if you haven't already done so, it would be in your best interest.