live classical recording for gearslutz virgin

[diva]

I'm a classical singer looking to record a demo live. Just me and piano/organ in a place with decent accoustics. I'm a total newbie at diy recording. What do I need? I have good mics.
Do I need an MD recorder? Or just plug mics into laptop with garageband? (i know, y'all are cringing at the moment, but baby steps for me!!).
Any advice much appreciated, in newbie English, please!!
Thanks.

[desotoslo]

what kind of mics are they?

[joelpatterson]

The best approach is to find/hire/seduce someone to be the equipment operator, someone with some slight experience at this sort of thing, and let him/her/it take on the technical end.

There's about forty five different decisions that need to be made in the scenario you describe. What mics, where mics, what pre, limiter?, what gain structure, and like that, and also someone to be the "audience" and give you their impression of how effective your performance was, how it could be improved, what pitfalls fell into which pits, was it a little dragging or rushed, did a truck roll by outside at at a critical moment, all that stuff.

Imagine it from the other end. What if someone said, "I need to do some classical singing, how do I do that? I have a voice!"

[NorseHorse]

Since you're interested enough in recording to have signed into GearSlutz, I won't steer you away from trying to record yourself performing. That's how I got interested in recording as well. (She said "Baby steps", guys. )

I've known people who have recorded full-length albums in Garage Band, so if you want to record directly to your computer, you can plug mics into an audio interface that connects to your computer via USB or Firewire. Some of my first recordings were of voice recitals using two MXL 990s running to my computer via an M-Audio Fast Track Pro.

However, if you don't want to worry about bringing your computer or buying an interface, you might want to buy a stand-along recorder like the Zoom H4 or Zoom H4n. It would also be useful for times when you just want a basic record of your performances without setting up an extra pair of mics (it has it's own).

However, I'm assuming you have a small budget. Do you have a large budget? How much are you willing to spend? (Maybe something like the Korg MR-1000 is within your reach.) What microphones do you have already? And per Joel's instructions, it's definitely a good idea to see if you have a friend or local recording enthusiast who would be willing to help you out. However, don't let anyone tell you you must hire an engineer if you just want a basic demo. However, if you want something that's as good as the stuff you hear on the radio, definitely hire someone who knows what they're doing and concentrate on the singing. Good luck!

[Corran]

Good points all.

If you are really interested in this recording thing I'd say invest in a small 2-track recorder like the Zoom H4 or H4n coming out soon. You can plug mics right into it and not have to worry about preamps or anything. Turn on phantom power if you need and you're ready to go. This begs the question, what mics do you have?

Just read up on mic placement techniques. Wikipedia has a decent article on that if I remember.

If you aren't that into it, yeah probably should just hire someone, but Norse makes a good point - you did sign up here!

[fifthcircle]

I have two answers for you.

1. If these recordings really matter, hire somebody who knows their stuff. You'll get a better recording and you'll spend a lot less than the gear of that quality costs. Remember, the recording is a reflection of YOU. If that recording is not good, it reflects poorly on YOU and YOU alone.

2. That being said... Learning to record yourself is a great idea. You can train your ears in a way that you may not necessarily be used to. This training is extremely valuable and will benefit you in any professional situation for the rest of your life. My suggestion is to purchase a small recorder and a pair of mics or a stereo microphone. When you start looking at this stuff, you'll find that it costs a lot more than you are probably going to be ready to pay. My suggestion is one of the small flash card-based recorders that has a "real" XLR microphone input. By this, I mean a mic input that does not use adapters to go to a 1/4" or similar plug. (See the Fostex FR2LE versus the M-Audio Microtrack for an example of what I am talking about). As for mics, there are lots of mics in the $400-$600/pair range that should work quite well for what you are doing. I got my start using a pair of Shure SM81 mics (about $600/pr new). There are lots of offerings out there that would do you fine. Also, for the mics, consider looking on ebay. Mics of this quality do not have a very high resale value which means you can get the same quaity for less money.

Good luck with everything.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

I would hire someone good, and pay close attention to what he/she does. Ask lots of questions. after two-three of those sessions, you will have a great starting point for your own recordings.

You can even ask them to do a double setup and give you two versions.
for instance an ortf setup and an omni setup and maybe a mix thereof.
that way you can start to learn the sound of both.

[Plush]

Recording quality and singing quality are best judged by someone other than the person who is singing. Besides, you should be concentrating only on your expression, pitch and tone.

Just hire someone competent to record you and in your off hours practice recording yourself and others.

[Paul_Jolstead]

Wow. Could we be LESS helpful? Way to scare people off. Sounds like most of you have completely forgotten what it was like to start. She obviously came to the wrong place.

[Corran]

Actually this thread is generally more helpful than ones in the past...

[Paul_Jolstead]

That's not saying much.

[John Hedger]

diva,
Alot of good advice here. First I would ask...How important is this particular demo and what is it for? Is it to enter a contest or to audition for a University or summer workshop? Or perhaps to audition for a faculty gig at a college? If it is a very important "one time" demo I would hire someone local who has experience recording classical recitals.

On the other hand, if you are wanting to record all rehearsals/recitals in an ongoing fashion like I do, I would recommend investing a few pieces of solid recording gear that is easy to set up quickly and is unobtrusive for those situations. Often one is pressed for time in rehearsals and other players will be anxiously looking at their watch if you have to take even 5 minutes to set up a lot of recording gear. Plus, rehearsals are often in cramped quarters.

I am a classical guitarist/lute player and have had a keen interest in recording my rehearsals/recitals since 1979. When I had a one time performance of my masters composition thesis in the early 90's, I hired a local recordist to do that one. I started out with pretty meager gear - a JVC cassette player with a single mic input and a Sure SM58 plugged in mono, and actually got some decent recordings that way. More recently I have recorded myself mostly with a Superscope PSD300 CD recorder which records directly to CD at 44.1 khz resolution. These type recorders are fairly reliable and have other uses for the practicing musician. However, if I were shopping today for such a recorder, I would consider some of the recent flash card recorders such as a Marantz PMD661 for around $550 on ebay, which looks solid and easy to use. The Korg MR1000, which I just invested in myself, would be another excellent choice, but a more expensive recorder.

Later on, instead of plugging a pair of mics into your built in recorder preamp, perhaps you could invest in a good stereo ribbon mic, like a Cascade X-15 ($400), or better, an AEA R88 ($1700), along with an AEA TRP ribbon mic pre ($850) which would be an easy, hassle free setup for you for a higher quality recording. All of that would be in the ballpark of a minimum $2000 - $3000 or so investment.

John

[klaukholm]

If this is for demos, college applications and educational/pro festivals I would get a pro to to the job as I previously stated.
You should never compromise on quality when presenting your talents to institutions.

This advice comes from me as a seasoned audition panel member in a professional orchestras. If this is for personal use go for it, and record every rehersal you ever do, which is generally good advice for any aspiring professional.

[Ozpeter]

The mention of garageband in the question is perhaps significant. If 'Diva' has a general understanding of how that program works, then that's a good part of the problem solved.

For classical self-recording, the Zoom H2 has the advantage of simplicity, and when you record yourself the controls and display are facing you, unlike recorders where the display faces the ceiling when in use. In a good acoustic you can record two stereo tracks from its front and back, and add appropriate amounts of the room sound from the rear mics later, creating a pleasing ambience to taste. It's also about as cheap as you can get, if this venture is in the nature of an experiment.

[Paul_Jolstead]

Right, my point exactly. "nice mics" and garageband. I think the better advice would be to suggest the appropriate interface for her mac. She said, "baby steps" and "newby english" and most of what she would have read is, hire someone, you can't do it, buy expensive stuff that doesn't make sense for what you said you already had.

Again, this is probably not the place to ask for newby advice. (comment intended for other posters not diva OP)

[desotoslo]

You out there, Diva?

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by Paul_Jolstead

Wow. Could we be LESS helpful? Way to scare people off. Sounds like most of you have completely forgotten what it was like to start. She obviously came to the wrong place.

I take issue with this statement!
The poster said it is for a demo. The style is classical.

Competition for these jobs and festival spots is very tough.

It may help to know that the Metropolitan Opera specifies a certain recording distance and "a studio quality microphone such as a km184 or better"

I would make sure to make the tape with a top pianist in a very good room such as a first class recital hall.

There are some poster here with very solid classical backgrounds like Plush and Ben. Their advice is that of professionals with a solid understanding of the classical scene.


If you have a mac laptop with an optical input (spdif), I would get a single schoeps CMD with an mk4, or a km184D.
That eliminates the need for an interface, and will get you a very good soundquality without having to set gains.

for a demo, I would always spend twice the money on mic and pre and use a single mic if you are making a purchase.

In cities where you can rent equipment, I would look for a sound devices recorder and either sennheiser mkh series, schoeps, DPA, or neumann mics.

We rent out mics such as TLM170s for $10 a day here, and you could rent one for each demo recording in your career and it will not cost an arm and a leg and you get the sound of a $2500 mic.

[John Hedger]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

The mention of garageband in the question is perhaps significant. If 'Diva' has a general understanding of how that program works, then that's a good part of the problem solved.

We still really don't know by her post if she has a solid understanding of garageband. It could be that a friend offhandedly advised her that is what she needs to get. My well meaning bass player in my blues band sees my location recording rig and keeps telling me I need to chuck it all and get Cubase to run with my laptop...merely because it offers more tracks.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

We rent out mics such as TLM170s for $10 a day here, and you could rent one for each demo recording in your career and it will not cost an arm and a leg and you get the sound of a $2500 mic.

That's just crazy to me. I don't even think there is a gear rental place in my state. Maybe Atlanta but what's the point. How do you find these kinds of places? I'd love to rent a pair of Schoeps and shoot them out with my Earthworks.

[Paul_Jolstead]

The original poster vanished (maybe she got some useful information from a different source).

All we know is she is doing a demo (why we don't know). She'd didn't say audition btw. Has "nice mics" (again we don't know what nice means to her). I also infer that she has a mac. Everything else we've stated is conjecture.

I stand by my first statement about the advice being, at times, less than helpful. Seems like the default statements are: Don't bother, you can't do this properly; or buy Schoeps or some high priced interface that the poster doesn't have or can't afford. The information given is like trying drink from a firehose (WAY too much info, too expensive, etc.) when a sippy cup is needed.

I also find many helpful comments and people that want to help (which is why I keep coming back). I do think a gentler approach would help diva better.

[Corran]

Okay, the first 5 posts included a both cheaper and more expensive 2-track recorders. Only one had no specific suggestions but said to maybe hire someone (and I know Joel didn't mean to sound negative, he's usually on the side of "sure! experiment!").

Not until the last few posts did someone mention Schoeps and that was my thing about rentals mostly.

Come on dude, we are being helpful.

[joelpatterson]

Mr. Paul: you're not doing anyone any favors to blithely-- and falsely-- imply that the first awkward, unschooled attempts at recording audio are going to yeild anything worth listening to. Certainly not something to present as a "resume" of your efforts.

If it were a ten year old kid who was asking, "Me and my buddies want to record some sound effects for a Saturday afternoon carnival show we're putting on... how best do we do that? Garageband?" that would be one thing.

I think everyone here has been extremely gentle and helpful, if that's put dents in anyone's toenails, sheesh....!

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Mr. Paul: you're not doing anyone any favors to blithely-- and falsely-- imply that the first awkward, unschooled attempts at recording audio are going to yeild anything worth listening to.

Yes, but remember, she wasn't attempted unschooled attempts. She was attempting Gear-Slutz informed attempts! thumbsup Also, I still have some of my first recording attempts up on my website. I worked with a number of people when I was "feeling out" the whole recording thing, and they were all very pleased at the results. So... don't write people off just because they're trying something for the first time (or 2nd or 3rd time - or if they're only in the 7th year of their "first eight years"; see How did you become a Remotester? (Or "Your First Eight Years")). They might get something horrible, something decent, or even something great. And at least they learned something. I've never met a photographer who would discourage someone from learning how to take photographs and how to use a manual camera.

Also, as to audition tapes. If would like to augment Mr. Laukholm's statement regarding audition expectations. I know a number of people who have been accepted to conservatories and music festivals whose auditions were recorded on basic consumer cassette machines (probably with built-in mics). Even Olivier Latry, THE organist at Notre Dame in Paris, got his job just by mailing in a basic cassette. They hired him right away based on the performance quality. So... while some groups like the Metropolitan Opera might expect professional recordings, many more do not. It's a shame we don't know what Miss Diva's goals for with the recording!!!! Just my luck with girls...

PS Dents in toenails?! That a NY thing?

[John Hedger]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Also, as to audition tapes. If would like to augment Mr. Laukholm's statement regarding audition expectations. I know a number of people who have been accepted to conservatories and music festivals whose auditions were recorded on basic consumer cassette machines (probably with built-in mics). Even Olivier Latry, THE organist at Notre Dame in Paris, got his job just by mailing in a basic cassette. They hired him right away based on the performance quality. So... while some groups like the Metropolitan Opera might expect professional recordings, many more do not. It's a shame we don't know what Miss Diva's goals for with the recording!!!! Just my luck with girls...

PS Dents in toenails?! That a NY thing?

I was thinking the same thing. A buddy of mine got hired at Vanderbuilt U in Nashville with meager cassette tapes recorded off my two track Tascam in 79'. Plus, I have heard some very polished vocal recordings from students who I knew were lazy as lizards on a rock when they studied guitar with me!

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

... PS Dents in toenails?! That a NY thing?

I guess that's what happens when someone steps on your toes wearing high-heeled shoes? Like, stiletttos? It's the kind of thing you only let happen once.

[Paul_Jolstead]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Mr. Paul: you're not doing anyone any favors to blithely-- and falsely-- imply that the first awkward, unschooled attempts at recording audio are going to yeild anything worth listening to. Certainly not something to present as a "resume" of your efforts.

If it were a ten year old kid who was asking, "Me and my buddies want to record some sound effects for a Saturday afternoon carnival show we're putting on... how best do we do that? Garageband?" that would be one thing.

I think everyone here has been extremely gentle and helpful, if that's put dents in anyone's toenails, sheesh....!

Mr. Joel,

thank god none of you are teachers

[joelpatterson]

Yes, amen to that.

[Corran]

I am

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Paul_Jolstead

Mr. Joel,

thank god none of you are teachers

dfegad

And how do you know that? Just because your panties are in a bunch doesn't mean you should be making comments like that. As it turns out, happen to be dead wrong. Some of us *are* in fact teachers.

As it turns out, I think this has actually been a constructive thread. There is nothing wrong with saying that if the recording is actually important, you should hire a pro to do it. If you want to learn, we're also here to help. Those are two distinct differing but complementary viewpoints.

When I was a student and was learning to record, I recognised this pretty early on. I certainly recorded myself and I heard all the problems with those recordings. Most of the time, it didn't matter- the standards were also a lot lower back then because everything was delivered on cassette. It got to a point pretty early on that even though I could record myself, I didn't. I found that either the performance was good or the recording was good. Rarely did both work out, most of the time, the performance suffered. If we haven't scared off the origianal poster, hopefully she'll have good experiences trying to record herself.


--Ben

[diva]

WOW, hi everyone,

I was shocked to log in and find all these replies to my query! Thanks everyone so much for your advice. I'll have to take some time to sift through my options.

To answer your qu's, the recording isn't for an audition. I mostly sing for weddings and funerals. The undertakers would like a recording so clients can hear what I sound like and hear a sample of music they might like for the funeral. Same goes for weddings - the priests/celebrants would like recordings. As would potential wedding clients contacting me via email. Thought I could set up a simple website and have a few samples online.

My mics are Sennheiser e945. And I have access to other mics at the church where I sing - choir mics - I'd have to check what they are, but I'm told they're 'top-of-the-line'. I just know they're more multidirectional than mine, and I can stand a metre away and get great pickup... the sound is rich.

I tried a local 'studio' (friend of a friend has one set up in his home as a hobby) and was disappointed - the accoustics were dead. I was told we'd just add in reverb later. I prefer natural accoustics. I have hired him to record a couple of my concerts in the past - no editing, just a recording. Okay results. The same person said he could record this demo for me, incl editing, on location for $900. Some friends have offered to bring in their mac and do this recording with garageband (they know garageband inside out; I don't). And hey, that would only cost me a couple bottles of wine! Still, I'd like to learn to do this myself. I'm a quick learner!

Time to reread your posts and make some decisions. Thanks guys!