10,000 budget for church for a sound system.

[ron florentine]

I am a total studio guy and dont do much live sound.....but the church that I help out doing live sound has a 10,000 budget and asked me to put a list of gear together for them.......this is out of my expertise so any insight regarding a total sound reinforcement package would be very helpful! We will need a console 24-32 channels......2-3 monitors...... main speakers......snakes....a bit of outboard gear..... a couple condesor mics and just a few dynamics ............the actual space is fairly large with high cieling about 30 feet high..................Is there anything outside of Peavey of Carvin that would fit within that budget.........A Midas console is out of the question because of financial limitation....want to try to get the best bang for the buck and help these guys out........One of the guys in church is pushing some Peavey console that seems to be aimed fo the church sanctuary market.....any idea what console that could be?

Thanks guys!
Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[George Necola]

Peavey has a special line for church-activities. the gear is mostly white and not black or gray.. it does not help the sound but maybe it looks better in a church. I have no experience with peavey church-line products.. marketing gag? I dont know..

is it an option to buy secondhand? I would contact a local PA-rental store and ask if they have a secondhand soundreinforcement system. you have to keep attention on the acoustics and how you "hang", "float" the system in the church.

for condensors I would go with something robust and new. small AKG condensors, rhode nt5.. dynamics I would recommend Shure or Sennheiser microphones. you can't go wrong with an SM57 or a Sennheiser 9xy series (espacially for vocals you should check out the sennheiser 9xy series).

some of my favourite microphones are Audix mics.. I love the D6 for kick, bass, i5 for snare, guitars and somethimes vocals.

for snakes, I would also contact a PA rental company. Belden, Neutrik do a good job on snakes.

dont forget to buy enough microphone-stands. K&M does a good job.

there are a lot of options...

[tommy_asakawa]

These days, speaker arrays come in smaller packages that are self-powered and sound outstanding-
here's a couple of my favorites:

Turbosound Professional Loudspeaker Products

Turbosound product

Midas Venice may be a nice console option for you:

Midas Consoles | Verona

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Randall

My advise.. Keep it simple... different folks with little to no hands on experience will most likely be operating it.

Remember as well.. It's a church.. don't go for overkill

This is so true, great advice. I don't do church sound myself but have assisted some churches, one local one in particular. The problem 99% of the time with church sound is all the different people who think they know what they are doing, and the pastor never knows if what they are telling them is right or not. The last "church sound" guy I talked to ran the board during the services and when I suggested he could use the auxes to feed monitors a certain way etc, he literally asked "what is an aux?".

Ron, Horizon builds very decent snakes and they are installed in thousands of churches across the country at a very decent price. All made right here in the USA. I'm not a Peavey guy, but they usually do fine and if anything...well they just seem to live forever!

War

[MidasHatesGold]

Hi

there are different ways to achieve a nice sound within your budget. i´ll give you 3 options... from industry standard to a mixed together sort of thing.

ok...well

1st

try to do de-centralized speaker allignments...
a good thing will be 3 or 4 delaylines of a good sounding, may be 10 inch speakers, loaded with a horn.... i would recommend fohhn... but any brand with a good sound will do it. Another thing is, to use an active system to avoid complicateted cable session (amps etc). Then you will need one or two subs, which can be hitten behind any sacral thing;-)

Same with monitors...all active

build a multicore with an imputbox (sends/return...for monitors, mics, and the PA signal)+ an installed snake (maybe connex etc.) at FOH position.

FOH

Get a Yamaha 01V (96...to record stuff)or another digital console and you won´t need any outboard...and you will be more likely within your price range. For Controlling of time alleignments you can use the 01V, I think max. 2 lines...not sure. (if the church is long you might need to get a controller...u could use a behringer...did i say behri.....well)

this way of speading sound, provides the best coverage and enough head room....the hard thing is to get it all measured in order to avoid phase problems...you might wanna pay an engineer for that.

brands

Fohhn
HK Audio
JBL
any good active spk


2nd

install an ela system....

means electro acoustic system using 100 Volt and install all those little speakers evry 4 meters....

negative thing is that it´s difficult to use for live music..but it´s possible



3rd

a centercluster hanging on the seeling...may be amp powered...but this is stupid because of the insane reflections you will get when you drive it louddfegad





may be you could try to get some bose L1 on stage and a few for delay lines used on ebay...or whereever you´ll get those things. So you don´t need monitors...in theory.

mics are up to you!

so here is my list


6 active tops (fohhn, turbosound, HK, bose, JBL) 3000
1 sub (1000 watts rms minimum) 1000
3 active monitors (JBL or similar) 900
cabling 1000
mixer (01V96 or DM1000/2000range for more ch) 2500
mics .(few sm57/58 few condeser....left to spend ) 1600

could work!!!

but think about paying for installation and measurements.....may be you could do that and earn some bucks


i hope i helped out a bit

[bcgood]

I've been helping out with live sound at a local church for the last couple of months. I've been thinking of the stuff I would like to get to upgrade. Personally I want to get a 32 channel Toft. I was thinking of running the mix out to a Pro VLA II and a Vintech 273. As far as speakers go I still really love those old Bose speakers with the two tubes pointing out of either side. I'm not sure what model those are, they are great sounding live speakers though. A church I went to when I was growing up had them and they always sounded nice but maybe that just meant that we had a good sound guy.

[Heartfelt]

I am a worship leader and have done church sound in smaller venues for a lot of years. Here is what I would reccomend and to reiterate something said earlier... K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. (just a popular saying)

In your shoes, I would look at:
QSC HPR122's with subs. (all active... no amps needed) 899/ea
QSC HPR122i | Sweetwater.com

Yamaha Club series monitors. (decent sound - cheap and durable) 339/ea
Yamaha SM12V | Sweetwater.com


A couple of amps for 4 monitor sends in a cheap rack 419/ea
Yamaha P2500S | Sweetwater.com


A&H Board Zed436 2200/ea
Allen & Heath ZED436 | Sweetwater.com


Drive Rack PA analyzer/EQ/crossover 600.00 (with mic)




Notes:

1. You don't need digital if your budget is 10K. It will eat your resources.
2. If you really crave outboard, limit it to a verb or two and a Presonus ACP88.
3. You don't NEED any thing better than an SM58 for vox.
4. Cage your drums and mic them. Be sure the cage has absorbtion.
5. When you can afford it, get your musicians on inear, such as Hear it. (about 1500).
6. Keep your booth where the people are and if it is against the back wall, treat the wall behind the booth.
7. Try to space your speakers and run stereo if the room allows.
8. There is no shame in center clusters if the room demands it.
9. Build a false wall behind the stage to act as bass trap and to absorb stage volume.

hope it helps. happy to help further.
Rob

Originally Posted by ron florentine

I am a total studio guy and dont do much live sound.....but the church that I help out doing live sound has a 10,000 budget and asked me to put a list of gear together for them.......this is out of my expertise so any insight regarding a total sound reinforcement package would be very helpful! We will need a console 24-32 channels......2-3 monitors...... main speakers......snakes....a bit of outboard gear..... a couple condesor mics and just a few dynamics ............the actual space is fairly large with high cieling about 30 feet high..................Is there anything outside of Peavey of Carvin that would fit within that budget.........A Midas console is out of the question because of financial limitation....want to try to get the best bang for the buck and help these guys out........One of the guys in church is pushing some Peavey console that seems to be aimed fo the church sanctuary market.....any idea what console that could be?

Thanks guys!
Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[Heartfelt]

In our contemporary circles here, a lapel for the pastor does great. Sennheiser and AT make decent packages for about $500.

.02

[tombak]

For FOH and monitor I wouldn't mess with anything other than second hand Meyer Sound, Renkus Heinz, or Apogee Sound. If you need white enclosures, carefully paint them yourselves with a proper and careful application.

The Meyer UM-1Ps are my favorite wedge monitors, they hardly ever need to be fussed with but these can run about 3k a piece new. I actually don't mind using the JBL-Eon 15P's as monitors, good bang and power for the buck. Plus if you ever need a small playback or announcement system for bingo games, and parties in a smaller room at the church or even street evangelism you'll have a perfect option with these units.

Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc. 2009
Renkus-Heinz, Inc. - Professional Audio Systems, Professional Sound Systems, PA Loudspeakers -
Welcome to Apogee Sound
SameDayMusic.com: JBL EON 15P PA Speaker

SoundBroker.com - Linking Buyers and Sellers is a place to start....

As far as a console goes the 24ch Soundcraft Spirit Live 4-2 series are great bang for the buck second hand. I prefer the layout and options of the Live 4-2 over the popular Allen and Heath GL series.

You can get DBX 166XL dual compressors for very little 2nd hand, they are reliable comps/gates. The TC Electronic M-One and D-Two are easy to find used and are a good choice for live applications. The BSS Opal series graphic EQs are not too pricey in the used market and they are wonderful units for both FOH and MON.

Depending if you get passive or active speakers I've found that the QSC Power Light series are very affordable 2nd hand are they are great sounding workhorses. Crown Macro Tech units can also be had at reasonable prices from the used market.

A handful of SM57s and SM58s plus a couple of AT condensers and you'll be set.
Wireless systems are popular at houses of worship, but reliable ones can be costly. I think you should talk them out of the idea if this is something they are thinking of.

2nd 19" equipment racks are going for cheap second hand anymore, they're hard to sell yet easy to ship, so there are many good rack deals to be had.

Buy quality cable and connectors in bulk, make your own leads and do an installed snake, you'll save loads of money.

Decent microphone stands are affordable new. Though i prefer K&M, Atlas make quality stands that don't cost as much as their German competitor.

Are we missing anything else?

Yes, Peavey is made for devil worshiping music aka Heavy Metal .

You can always kick it old school with a few pairs of Altec VOTT A7's and a Shure micro
phone mixer.

[Heartfelt]

Those are all great options but can he do that for 10K? Those are all typical and first rate install gear... just couldn't see them in the budget.

I guess used is an option but that scares me a bit; of course, it isn't my system.

Also, I have yet to see a HoW without a wireless system. How is that even done.

The JBL's are a great call for versatile monitors for sure!

[ron florentine]

Thanks for all the input guys!!! Much appreciated......I want to stay away from second hand only because I dont want things breaking down and it coming back and bite in the arse.........one of the other sound guys is putting together a list for me to look at.....I will post it when I get it..........I do know he was pushing the peavey console line that is specifically tailored towards churches......has anyone here worked on one.....and what is so different about them comparing them to stardard live console........thanks again and anymore sugestions greatly welcomed!


Ron florentine
Soundswest Studio

[MidasHatesGold]

had a couple of peaveys for monitor sound...they do there job....you don´t have to break your head that much on sonically issues in a church...you rather should consider a well placed PA system.

Meyer is great (all the UPA stuff) but not in your price range....

don´t go just Stereo...you have to crank up the volume tor reach the last rows of audience..use at least one delay line and keep the volume accurate.....K.I.S.S...nice one!!!!

regarding the digital desk...mmhh maybe right but keeping it simple for me means...just get the desk on a table and plug in a multipin....(all wired in first place) an done job....But i always would prefer analog stuff...sound wise...go for the peavy desk...analog is more likely to handle for engineers who are comming with the band.

caging drums is a nice idea... maybe an absorber above will do it...go DIY for that.

Have you ever thought about a huge headphone system....

maybe 1000 headphone amps and headphones....all place and wired right behind the (dunno how you call it) banks, seats??? an go in ear puplic adressing....would be fun to do that....altough it´s possible...saw it for 100 people....

try to get an endorsment...from a new unknown company...i think a lot of companies will support churches....won´t they...i think that can raise you budget....

ok i´m out of ideas

kind regards

chris