Audience Mics: TV Truck or Music Truck or Both?

[CottageLunch]

I just completed an awards show where I mixed the music for all the acts but did not have access to the audience mics. The TV mixer (who juggled a million cues and nailed it) took my feed and mixed it in with the VTR playback, hosts, and audience. Is this always the case? There were a few instances where I would have liked to sneak in some crowd to liven up the vibe while the bands were on. He covered the intros and finishes of the songs with crowd reaction that matched the wide shots.
Mind you, this is live to air. Perhaps I should have run a few stereo pairs just for music truck use...

Brian

[HughH]

Hello,

On almost all the large music shows here in the states where there's a separate music mixer, the production mixer handles audience. This is for two main reasons -

First - the production mixer knows how to get the audience sound the producer wants, in your face without washing out the music too much. That's one of his many jobs and he's good at it. Many music mixers don't know how to do this well, nor do they have the time to finely balance an audience mix. The producer can easily yell at the production mixer for "MORE AUDIENCE!!!" and the production mixer knows how to do it (or fake it) without killing the music mix. The music mixer is in another truck and certainly not listening to the producer while music is going on.

Second - having the audience mix switch back and forth between the music mixer while music is happening, and the production mixer when other things are happening, leads to all kinds of problems. Overlaps, gaps, and if it's the same mix of mics and a digital system - comb filtering when they're both overlapping. It can work but it takes lots of practice between the two of you.

That said, on a recent show we had one high profile act whose rep insisted on having the audience in the music truck. We shipped him a feed and, predictably, it wasn't done very well - you couldn't hear the audience. It didn't matter because the music mixer and the production mixer have a good relationship and were able to dovetail the top and bottom of the performance with their respective audience additions to complement what the artist's rep wanted.

Good music-mixer/production-mixer teams know how to mix so that the production mixer's audience additions don't kill the music mix, and the music mix leaves space for the audience. The music mix relies on the production mixer's ambience to add to the music mix, not kill a music mix because there's already too much artificial ambience in it.

If you felt there should have been more audience in the mix then either he was adding all he thought he could get away with (because the PA was too loud or whatever), or he should have added in more audience. Good communication is essential (no news there). If you decide to put out "a few stereo pairs" for music truck use that's certainly an option, but keep in mind that you have two choices when you only use a few audience mics with a loud PA system - either the mics are tight and you get a few people that sound anemic, or the mics are looser and pick up more people, but in reality all you get is PA and the sound of the room. Everyone puts out mics for the sound of the room, but you have to balance that with tight audience and a lot of it. That's why many production mixers put out between 12-20 audience mics of various types in various places.

My opinions only from doing many of these.
Hugh

[CottageLunch]

Both the truck engineer and the TV truck guy said essentially the same thing, let them suss out the dozen mics in the room and I work on my mix, (17 acts in 3 hours)
Thanks for your advice.
Brian

[huub]

Old post, but still an interesting topic...
Mixing Award-type shows I very much prefer to mix in the audience, however some music mixers (hired by production for what they deliver) prefer/demand to handle the audience mics and deliver me a submix of audience mics to mix into the non-music segments.. These are highly experienced guys who now what they're doing and i'm fine with doing it that way...
In practice, the fade over between music+audience doesn't cause audible comb-filtering, you just have to find a good moment to do it..
If all this is done in good cooperation, all is fine.......

Mind you, these musicmixers are no studioguys but experienced music for broadcast mixers who know what the producers want..

[Remoteness]

This is exactly how I like to do it as a music mixer!

I also prefer and demand (kindly request) to handle the audience mics, but I rather blend it into the music sub-mix I deliver to the production mixer. I've tried the sub-mix route, but it never works if and when the production mixer starts to adjust the levels.

The way I address the audience mics with regard to the music balance is key to my sound...

I spend a good amount of time EQing and balancing the audience mics to help build my music mix.
How they hit the compressors and which mics hit which compressors is an important part of my sound.
How I want it to come-off to the folks at home is based on the perfect balance between the stage and audience mics.

Huub, said it best, "if it's all done in good cooperation, all is fine."

Thanks for bringing this thread back up for discussion.

Originally Posted by huub

Old post, but still an interesting topic...
Mixing Award-type shows I very much prefer to mix in the audience, however some music mixers (hired by production for what they deliver) prefer/demand to handle the audience mics and deliver me a submix of audience mics to mix into the non-music segments.. These are highly experienced guys who now what they're doing and i'm fine with doing it that way...
In practice, the fade over between music+audience doesn't cause audible comb-filtering, you just have to find a good moment to do it..
If all this is done in good cooperation, all is fine.......

Mind you, these musicmixers are no studioguys but experienced music for broadcast mixers who know what the producers want..

[huub]

Yes Steve, that's what I meant actually, the submix I only use for the non-music segments..

[See and Hear]

That's why many production mixers put out between 12-20 audience mics of various types in various places.



So how do you check/set your ambient levels when there are no fans screaming along with the band until the show starts. Or which ambients do you start with first then add which into the mix.

[Remoteness]

Well, it depends.

I EQ and balance my audience mics during sound-check with the stage, MON and FOH at full volume.

Then, if there's an opening act, I always fine tune the EQ and re-balance my mic balances as per their set.

As for the which mics are used for what, I like to create my (band) room tone with the rear mics that are usually placed at (near) FOH. Depending on the size of the venue, I made add another pair further back to this blend.

The (three to six) front mics are usually set for audience applause swells.

In any event, the rear, (mid when applicable) and front mic sub groups are balanced to each other then blended into the music mix with the addition of front audience mic swells.

I hope this helped.

Originally Posted by See and Hear

That's why many production mixers put out between 12-20 audience mics of various types in various places.



So how do you check/set your ambient levels when there are no fans screaming along with the band until the show starts. Or which ambients do you start with first then add which into the mix.

[felixtoro]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Well, it depends.

I EQ and balance my audience mics during sound-check with the stage, MON and FOH at full volume.

Then, if there's an opening act, I always fine tune the EQ and re-balance my mic balances as per their set.

As for the which mics are used for what, I like to create my (band) room tone with the rear mics that are usually placed at (near) FOH. Depending on the size of the venue, I made add another pair further back to this blend.

The (three to six) front mics are usually set for audience applause swells.

In any event, the rear, (mid when applicable) and front mic sub groups are balanced to each other then blended into the music mix with the addition of front audience mic swells.

I hope this helped.

Having been on gigs with Stevie, He always brings his own audience mikes just in case this exact deal happens. You always need to capture the ambiance of a room and energy of the crowd. Without those, your live recording won't be so live.

[See and Hear]

Thanks guys, I can almost always glean information from reading posts about the live remote gigs.

I guess I’m thinking when there is not a “true” sound check when full band is playing. (festival where there is mostly just line checks or a genie runs out of gas, venue/ union calls it a day when doing checks, first sound check act is on ears and doesn't need a check etc)
Do you bring ambient to unity when doors open then back off 30% for start of show or start at zero when the first band starts and push up ambiance as the show goes; knowing that you are recording/broadcasting the first band with little or know ambiance?

Same for sports
Are ambient levels adjusted during warm ups? What are the usual ratios for field of play compared to fans in the mix?
How much gain is changed between rehearsals and the start of the program due to intensity of crowd?

[huub]

I don't think I'm ever like "this is about 30%, that's perfect"
I have no idea about ratios, I blend until it sounds good, and it's never really the same.
For music, I often slowly push up the ambience during soundcheck and try and find the "sweet spot"
(or fade down from full fader to find the sweet spot)