My first time flying a mic -

[Corran]

So I flew my first mic this weekend! I used my newly refurbished B&O stereo ribbon over orchestra and choir since the front of the stage had dancers on it for part of this concert.

I used 80 lb test fishing line. Seemed to work fine but I'd love to know what people are using "for real." I just made this up as I went. I used pretty lame square knots which I know probably wasn't smart. Any recommendations would be appreciated for knots.

I used a simple 2-point suspension which worked okay but it wasn't separated far enough to have easy change of position. Next time I plan to do three points to make it more stable.

The sound though turned out very well. I'm attaching a clip and some pics.

Does anyone know of a cheapish hanging mic holder for this kinda thing? I've seen them before it seems like but I don't know how expensive they are.

[Corran]

Just noticed that clip had no real orchestra. This one is better.

[rmx16]

Originally Posted by Corran

So I flew my first mic this weekend! I used my newly refurbished B&O stereo ribbon over orchestra and choir since the front of the stage had dancers on it for part of this concert.

I used 80 lb test fishing line. Seemed to work fine but I'd love to know what people are using "for real." I just made this up as I went. I used pretty lame square knots which I know probably wasn't smart. Any recommendations would be appreciated for knots.

I used a simple 2-point suspension which worked okay but it wasn't separated far enough to have easy change of position. Next time I plan to do three points to make it more stable.

The sound though turned out very well. I'm attaching a clip and some pics.

Does anyone know of a cheapish hanging mic holder for this kinda thing? I've seen them before it seems like but I don't know how expensive they are.

A clove hitch always worked for me...

[Corran]

Nice - I will definitely use that knot next time. Looks a lot safer.

[hughesmr]

Honegger!! I've sung and recorded this ... one of my first pro recording gigs many a year ago. Man, we were really sucky, and so was my recording. Learned a lot since then. Can you post "Now my voice in song upsoaring"?

Nice job with the hanger... I've never had the occasion to fly mics, but I'm sure some of the groups I've worked with wished I had .

[Corran]

Well I'm glad it wasn't my first pro gig - this was a pretty complex setup due to the stage set. It was kind of a straight drop but with two lines separated about 10 feet - still fairly unstable. I had to let it settle about 5 minutes, climb down and check position, go back up to adjust, and repeat ad infinitum. Not the best way to do it but it worked - that's another reason I made this thread, to get some more opinions on better ways to do this . I'd like to do it again since it came out well.

Edit: Do you know what number that movement is? I'm still working on the recording and I don't know the pieces all that well because I was playing as well as recording and didn't have time to pay attention to those singers!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

The only time I have flown mics is in a fixed setup that was not going to be changed. The reason I don't fly microphones on remotes are for the following reasons.

1. As you pointed out it take a lot of time to get it right.

2. There is potential for someone to get injured if a microphone or microphones falls during the concert and if it can be proven that you were at fault you better have some really good liability insurance especially if someone is seriously injured.

3. If the microphones fall and do no person or property damage you are still probably going to have to repair or replace the microphones.

4. Many auditoriums do not have good fly space where you need it and getting to that fly space maybe very tricky. The two places we do a lot of remote recording in have the only access to the fly space from the outside or up a very long very steep extension ladder in the other. Not something I want to do with a couple of thousand dollars worth of microphones.

5. Many auditoriums have fly space where you need but are also filled with a lot of very high amperage cables to the lighting instruments and that can create a lot of noise problems especially if the dimmer system is not well designed and you get a lot of spikes in the power.

6. Doing a lot of this by myself means I have to setup quickly and get going and I do not have the time to muck about with trying to get microphones to stop swaying after they are adjusted. In some of the halls we record in I have to be there after another concert and sometimes only have one hour to get setup and then I have to be out of the hall completely within 30 minutes for the next concert/rehearsal to start.

7. In a couple of churches we do recording in there is no fly space and the church, for obvious reasons, does not want lines run from one side of the church to the other to hang microphones on.

8. Cable runs can be excessive for flown microphones. In one case while doing a classical concert in an auditorium we had over 250 feet of microphone cable from the flown microphones to the truck.

There are other reason to fly and not to fly but these are the one that have come to mind.

Best of luck and let us know how this is working.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

...
8. Cable runs can be excessive for flown microphones. In one case while doing a classical concert in an auditorium we had over 250 feet of microphone cable from the flown microphones to the truck.
...

250 feet is pretty average. Many flown mics in bigger venues will have cable runs of up to 500 feet to the truck. Many trucks have multicores with 300-400 feet drums. Add the mic cable...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

250 feet is pretty average. Many flown mics in bigger venues will have cable runs of up to 500 feet to the truck. Many trucks have multicores with 300-400 feet drums. Add the mic cable...

Anything over 250 feet and I would want the preamps to be at the microphones and I would want to send back a line level signal. No matter how good your cable is over 250' you are going to start getting noise and high end roll off in a microphone level signal. 250 feet is about my length limit for running things at mic level.

[LX3]

For what it's worth...

By my calculations, 250ft of mic cable will be absolutely ruler flat to 50kHz, and isn't 3dB down until just over 200kHz, assuming a typical capacitor mic, and half-decent mic cable.

Your mic preamp and recording device will roll off the HF well before the mic cable does.

Multicores can be a bit worse for capacitance, but you've still got to go some for it to have an audible effect.

[Corran]

Excellent points Thomas, regardless of cable run issues. You have many points that I agree with, and as noted this is not something I would normally do but stage setup precluded normal micing.

Luckily for me the place I could hang from didn't have any of those problems, at least this time.

[LX3]

Every time I've had to fly microphones, it's been at least a two-man job... if only because it's close to impossible to both hang the mic and check it's in the right position from the same place.

Otherwise you're...

Hang the mic
Run downstairs, check position
Run upstairs, adjust rigging
Run downstairs, check position
Run upstairs, adjust rigging
etc, etc

And that gets increasingly tiresome the bigger the venue gets and the more things you need to fly.

There are also many rigs - like bars and so on - that I don't consider safe or practical to drop from a height (or lift from the floor) single-handed.

The good thing is there's an almost limitless supply of people out there who will jump at the chance to help on a location recording, and would appreciate a little payment for their effort.

I agree, if you're trying to set up and tear down in less than a couple of hours, flying mics can be a bit impractical. A good crew can make it happen though. Many hands = light work. They'll also cut the time it takes to load all your gear in and out by half!

Working with other people is a very good thing. Saves you going a bit loopy too.

[Corran]

I have trouble trusting anyone with my equipment or even just wrapping cables. Even telling me if the mic is pointed right - how do they know what angle you want?

That's a whole 'nother thread though.

[fifthcircle]

I usually try to rig cable systems with pulleys so I can move mics from a single point. Usually, I'll wrap both sides around pulleys to lock the cable off. I've never had a problem with them...

I've attached a couple cabling photos from some of the rigs I've done. Unfortunately, I don't have photos of where they physically tie off. Basically, if you use a double clip on on mic side of the pulley, clip both sides of the cable to each other. The friction keeps it in place. I use the mic cable as a single point and a 4-5 mil black nylon non-spring climbling line as my other tie back. It is rather unobtrusive and very strong.

--Ben

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Corran

I have trouble trusting anyone with my equipment or even just wrapping cables. Even telling me if the mic is pointed right - how do they know what angle you want?

You explain what you want the mic to do before you disappear to adjust the rig. Then check it yourself afterwards. If that doesn't work then you find a different assistant for next time

That's a whole 'nother thread though.

Agreed, although I think it would be a great thread. I couldn't have got as far as I have in this business without the help of some great assistants.

[LX3]

In an effort to contribute something constructive to this thread (I realise all I ever seem to do is go around disagreeing with people! Sorry people ), I often make hanging adaptors by taking the original mic clip, screwing a manfrotto brass spigot into the clip, then strapping the mic cable to the spigot with a cable tie, leaving a big enough loop of cable so you can still adjust the angle.

Works great, much cheaper than buying an expensive dedicated hanger (that may not fit half your mics anyway), and helps add a bit of mass to lightweight mics, which I think makes them easier to position.

Hope that's useful (for a change )

[rumleymusic]

This works Well

Stereo microphones, USB Microphones, Preamplifiers, Digital Recorders, Cables and more at Rock Bottom Prices from The Sound Professionals - Great deals on Microphone, Preamplifier, Digital Recorder, Cable and more!

It is a general clamp, but it can hook on to a stereo bar and the cable can be clamped without damaging it and hung safely. You definitely don't want the tension on the connector.

If you weigh your mics evenly, you might not even need a tie support other than the cable. Most good mic cables will not twist if lowered carefully. I use fishing line if I need some sway support. (Usually use an anchor knot).

If you record backstage, you should not need that much cable. I've done this at some pretty massive concert halls and even the highest bars at the front of the stage are not more than 35' up. 150' of cable per mic should do it. Less if you can patch into the backstage audio lines if there is a soundbooth in the hall.

If you record a live concert, many (most) people do not want a stand blocking the audience's view. It looks distracting and unprofessional. Sometimes you just don't have any choice but to fly the mics.

[rumleymusic]

Originally Posted by Corran
I have trouble trusting anyone with my equipment or even just wrapping cables. Even telling me if the mic is pointed right - how do they know what angle you want?
You explain what you want the mic to do before you disappear to adjust the rig. Then check it yourself afterwards. If that doesn't work then you find a different assistant for next time

Darn Union Halls Most of the time you get an intern to work with because the guy who supposedly know what they are doing are on their 5th lunch break.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

This works Well

Stereo microphones, USB Microphones, Preamplifiers, Digital Recorders, Cables and more at Rock Bottom Prices from The Sound Professionals - Great deals on Microphone, Preamplifier, Digital Recorder, Cable and more!

It is a general clamp, but it can hook on to a stereo bar and the cable can be clamped without damaging it and hung safely. You definitely don't want the tension on the connector.

If you weigh your mics evenly, you might not even need a tie support other than the cable. Most good mic cables will not twist if lowered carefully. I use fishing line if I need some sway support. (Usually use an anchor knot).

Nice looking product! I think I'll pick up some of these. I definitely didn't want tension on the connector - on this mic the connector doesn't snap in so it can come out easily

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Corran

Edit: Do you know what number that movement is? I'm still working on the recording and I don't know the pieces all that well because I was playing as well as recording and didn't have time to pay attention to those singers!

No.17. You can hear a snippet here (a practice site for singers!):

Choir Midi Learning Files - Arthur Honegger

[LX3]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Darn Union Halls Most of the time you get an intern to work with because the guy who supposedly know what they are doing are on their 5th lunch break.

Oh yeah... we seem to avoid that whole problem here in the UK. Most venues I work in, none of the in-house tech people (if there are any) want to do any more work than they have to. They do their thing, I do my thing, we smile and look after each other where possible... everyone's happy.

No unions here that I'm aware of. If you need to do something, you get up there and do it, and if you're not sure how something is organised or whether what you're planning is going to upset someone, you ask the house tech (or the lighting tech, or whoever it may concern).

Very occasionally a jaded in-house or road tech can get deliberately uncooperative (especially in rock and roll venues), but it's usually possible to sort it out one way or another.

It must turn into a battle of wills sometimes if you're forced to play second fiddle to union techs. Sheesh, we have it easy.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

No.17. You can hear a snippet here (a practice site for singers!):

Choir Midi Learning Files - Arthur Honegger

Not to go terribly off topic, but here is two clips of that movement - one at the college's concert hall and one at an amazing church in Atlanta that we played at the next day that I also recorded with a more simple two-mic setup (no hanging mics that time!).

[BLP]

So, auditorium hangers... Well, you could buy a slug hanger from AEA (an eye-bolt terminating in a standard mic thread that can be zip-tied onto a hanging mic cable) or you could simply make them yourself. If you can afford to have something steel (i.e. not black) hanging, try this out:

1. buy (or dredge up some old) Euro adapters that come with just about every mic ever sold in N. America
2. find an eye-bolt at Home Depot or the like that the Euro adapter fits over
3. use two locking nuts (one above, one below) to lock the adapter in place

Then, as with the AEA slugs, you simply tie the eye section of the device off to the mic cable with a cable tie. You can then attach the mic clip, shockmount or even a stereo bar to the stud. The slack between the end of the cable and the tie-off is isolated and strain-relieved from the rest of the cable and you can rotate the mic around nicely. The eye-bolt also provides an easy place to tie on a breasting line if you need one! thumbsup

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by LX3

For what it's worth...

By my calculations, 250ft of mic cable will be absolutely ruler flat to 50kHz, and isn't 3dB down until just over 200kHz, assuming a typical capacitor mic, and half-decent mic cable.

Your mic preamp and recording device will roll off the HF well before the mic cable does.

Multicores can be a bit worse for capacitance, but you've still got to go some for it to have an audible effect.

What cable are you using for your calculations? What impedance for the microphone and for the input to the console? We did an actual measurement with Belden 8412 and we were starting to see a drop in high frequency response at 250 feet. We were also going though some 5 XLR connectors (5 fifty foot cables) We used 150 Ohm output and the input to the Soundcraft 500 was measured at 1250 ohms.

[BLP]

PS Hanging mics by oneself is terrible! You've got to get a trustworthy assistant that job...

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

What cable are you using for your calculations? What impedance for the microphone and for the input to the console? We did an actual measurement with Belden 8412 and we were starting to see a drop in high frequency response at 250 feet. We were also going though some 5 XLR connectors (5 fifty foot cables) We used 150 Ohm output and the input to the Soundcraft 500 was measured at 1250 ohms.

Interesting.

I was basing my calculations on Sommer Symbiotic - most cables are around 100pF / metre. Typical mic output impedance of 100 ohm. Input impedance of 1.2k, although I think z-in won't influence cable HF rolloff that much (if at all), only level.

What were you using to check HF rolloff, and at what point do you feel it's significant?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by LX3

Interesting.

I was basing my calculations on Sommer Symbiotic - most cables are around 100pF / metre. Typical mic output impedance of 100 ohm. Input impedance of 1.2k, although I think z-in won't influence cable HF rolloff that much (if at all), only level.

What were you using to check HF rolloff, and at what point do you feel it's significant?

HP tone oscillator teminated with a 150 ohm resistor (actual output impedence of the oscillator was less than 50 ohms. Output through 250 feet of Belden Cable (8412) into the microphone input of the Soundcraft console. Watched the VU meters slowly go down above 10 kHz. Was down about .75 dBu at 15 kHz and about 1 dBu at 20 KHz. There were also 5 XLR connectors in line. Had a second buffered VU meter at the output of the oscillator to make sure the output level stayed constant.

[Audiop]

IMO 1dB down @ 20k is to much for critical work. OTOH something like a Sennheiser MKH8000 mic has an output Z of aprox. 25ohm which would be way better than 150ohm.

It also matters if the mic has a true balanced output or an impedance balanced output. The former puts the signal between the conductors while the latter puts the signal between one conductor and screen.


/Peter

[LX3]

Sounds pretty thorough, although I'd have wanted to watch the level with a scope rather than a VU on the desk. Did you try the same test with 20ft of cable? (I assume you did).

IIRC, Soundcraft often put a first order filter on their input channels and other stages, with quite a low breakpoint - maybe only 40kHz. (A long long time ago, I built a little monitor controller, copying a lot of Soundcraft's designs from the 200B). If you think about the shape of a 1st order filter, it could well still be 1dB down at 20kHz. So you might just be seeing the rolloff of the desk rather than the cable.

Or maybe it is the cable. The maths would say not, but I realise theory and reality aren't always the same thing.

Sometime I'll have a go at a similar test. I've never heard a problem (either noise or HF loss) from total runs of 100m or more. But then I'm pretty sure my ears are a lot more than 1dB down at 20k ;-)

[Audiop]

I was going to post a pic of one of my hanging arrangement but can't find that "hanging/flying thread". Is this thread what I'm looking for? Is this the official hanging thread?


/Peter