Backup strategies - the technical thread

[d_fu]

Rather than add to the (IMHO pointless) discussion in the thread next door on whether to make backups in the first place, I'd rather discuss the technical aspects of how to do so, and the various levels of backups that we'd do on various occasions.

IIRC, my first recordings (15 years ago) were without BU, just a DAT, sometimes two eventually. When I began recording with a PC (self-assembled machine in a 19-inch rack), I first used ye aulde Mackie 1202 for monitoring and for a stereo backup to DAT, and then a preamp/mixer combo (Spirit Protracker).
A heavy DA-30 on top of a heavy PC...

These stereo backups did save my recordings occasionally, even if it was just a short snippet that I had to insert into the multitrack after a dropout or something.

I eventually used for a DA-88 for at least 8 tracks of backup, and I now use second-hand hard drive recorders (Fostex VR-800 for 8 tracks, D-160 for 16 tracks, both equipped with practically silent 2.5" drives).
This is better than stereo, but still not a 100% backup, because both only record 16 bit. In most live situations and with some time to set levels, this is plenty, though... It's a risk I can live with most of the time.

If I need 24-bit backup, for very important live recordings or studio productions, I use a second laptop, and if it's really important, another one or the D-160.

This is a backup for the recording only. I split digitally, using preamps with two ADAT outputs (the second one is used for SMUX, but will carry a parallel signal at 44/48) or a MADI-ADAT format converter that will also split signals and feed two recorders.

This still leaves me with several SPOFs (Single Points of Failure), like the preamp, the converter, or one of my main mics... I think it was David Rick who pointed out that if at all, units like these would be likely to fail at or shortly after powering them up, so I try to have these up and running well before the show. Only once did a converter fail on me right before a show, but I had a backup device in the car that I could set up just in time.

Higher or even full redundancy is difficult to achieve... A second pair of main mics might help, but if it runs across the same preamp or multicore, there is still an SPOF or two...

I personally would set up a fully independent rig (mics, cables, preamps, recorders), only if I were asked to record Karajan's return to the Berlin Philharmonic for a single concert...
Studio productions may actually require a slightly lower level of redundancy, because things can be repeated in case of failure.

No level of redundancy will help, though, if you forget to start both the laptop and the backup recorder. So far, this only happened once so far...

Obviously, this won't help in case of power failure, but a UPS will let you save your files (even a laptop's battery can act as one). If power fails, most concerts will stop anyhow, and even if it's only because musicians can't read their scores any longer without light...


What are your strategies and levels of backup, what systems do you use? Where/how do you split? Do you vary the level of redundancy with the importance of the recording?

Daniel


PS: BTW, the Fostex VR-800 is a really neat little machine... It will only do 8 tracks, 16/44, but you just plug it into an ADAT source and record. I use it a good deal. Available on ebay for very little money. Will accept 80 gig drives with new firmware.

[bishopthomas]

I don't think there's a reason to go nuts with flying multiple pairs of mics, redundant snakes, etc. In my opinion, the first thing to go down will be your recorder so it is the necessary component that needs to be fail safe. I usually use 8 channel preamps, so if a channel goes down I'll probably have an open one to repatch to. If an entire unit goes down... I usually monitor off a mixer, so if I had to I could use the onboard preamps.

[RobAnderson]

I generally split at the converter, whether multitrack or two track. If I am unable to do this for some reason, I will use Y-cables off the back of the pre's. I have occasionally had troubles with converters, but I feel that it is just as easy to have problems with Y-cables so...

I always have extra everything, just in case - not going crazy, but there's always a plan B (and often a plan C). It allows me to sleep better at night.

There is usually no getting around the fact that there will be a single point of failure somewhere, but the recorder is the one that seems to go down most often, so that seems to be the thing that cries out for redundancy.

I'm with you Daniel - if I had to record Karajan's return to the Berlin Philharmonic for a single concert, I'd set up a completely independent rig - at least a 2-track. I mean c'mon - if the guy is gonna go through all that trouble to come back from the dead, I could at least hang an extra pair of mic's...

Just an anecdote that I heard at some point: when Phil Ramone recorded Sinatra for the first time (in a studio mind you), he set up two mic's for him - one just in case.

[NorseHorse]

Backing up A-D and storage by:

- Splitting the mic signals AFTER the preamps through Horizon Music MS-4 splitters.
- One stem goes through Focusrite Saffire to SONAR
- One stem goes to Edirol R-44

Splitting after the preamps is helpful if you don't have a two sets of nice preamps on location.

The Splitter Channel

[Ozpeter]

I just posted in the other thread that if you've got a one piece recorder with built in mics with you, at least you are going to come away with something regardless of what fails in the main rig.

[NorseHorse]

Re: Ozpeter

+1 H4, H2, et al

[LX3]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Backing up A-D and storage by:

- Splitting the mic signals AFTER the preamps through Horizon Music MS-4 splitters

Is that what you are doing, or what you would do?

Because that splitter you mention is a mic splitter. Designed for splitting mic-level signals. And therefore not a very good idea if placed AFTER the preamps (transformer saturation).

Although some mic split transformers will tolerate moderate line level signals, you should use line level transformers to do this. Though in truth, there really is nothing wrong with Y-splitting the output of a preamp (and it will theoretically sound better than using transformers. Especially cheap transformers).

The trick with Y-splits is building a failure-proof way of Y-splitting. It becomes a bit of an engineering challenge when you need to split 16 or 24, or 48 preamp outputs.

If I were doing a lot of classical I would use a mic splitter at recording-land, on the mic signals, and two separate sets of preamps feeding two separate recorders. And maybe set the gains on one preamp 4 or 5dB lower than the other, just in case there's a sforzando you didn't know about!

[NorseHorse]

Thanks for the question LX3. I actually brought this up in January, but no one offered any input:

The Splitter Channel

While the MS-4 is advertised as a "mic splitter", it is basically a tranformer balanced XLR splitter suitable for line inputs as well. I've done this personally, and the inputs are also labeled "mic/line".

My post was one example of how I backed up a recent show. I also do recording at a church that has some in house mics. For back-up there, I borrow an H4 or a D&M Pro - PMD660 Portable Solid State Recorder to plug into their system separately from mine.

[Corran]

I am working on my 24-channel backup rig now. I have the M-audio Lightbridge device to pipe in all 24 tracks of my HD24XR. Just add a laptop with Firewire and it's good to go.

H4 on the LR mix from my monitor mixer is another solid choice.

UPS is of course on all of this.

[Don S]

For 2 track backup, I simply do a mix from the FF800 out the spidf to an maudio microtrack. Note: This is one of the reasons I chose the FF800 - you can power down the computer, or loose firewire connection and the internal mixer still passes audio at the current mix. For mulitrack backup, I send ADAT out of the FF800 to a DA78. I still love tape!
I still do things like copy files from the external drive onto the internal laptop drive at intermission and at the end. I like leaving with multiple copies of the show.
I've only once had a converter go bad during a show. I know it's probably as good thing to do, however I almost never use a redundant main pair or preamps. I have a friend who puts and ORTF and spaced omni on a bar, the pairs running to separate pres and converters and machines. He runs mostly stereo rigs though.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

- Splitting the mic signals AFTER the preamps through Horizon Music MS-4 splitters.

I have that box and have been meaning to try it as a line level split. Good to know it works. Do both sides sound the same?

[pkautzsch]

When recording with my firewire gear only:
ADAT outputs of 896HD go to Fostex backup recorder.
When using additional preamps (Audients w/ ADAT card), it is (for budget reasons - to be improved!) ADAT out from pre --> Fostex --> to MOTU ADAT in. This needs proper clocking, as the 896's on-board-pres still are used and go out via ADAT too.
If I got one of those masochist days, I lug my old DA-20 to the site and record either the main pair or a stereo mix to it as a secondary backup.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Thanks for the question LX3. I actually brought this up in January, but no one offered any input:

The Splitter Channel

While the MS-4 is advertised as a "mic splitter", it is basically a tranformer balanced XLR splitter suitable for line inputs as well. I've done this personally, and the inputs are also labeled "mic/line".

The usual reason mic splitters can handle line level is that there's a pad switch on each input which typically drops the input signal by about 20dB before sending it to the transformer, to keep the transformer operating in the correct range. That means that you get approximately mic-level signals out of the thing when you send it line level and switch the pad on... meaning you then need to connect the outputs to yet another mic pre!

Check the specs for the actual transformers that the Horizon uses.... Although they're probably no-name transformers, so specs may be hard to come by. But let's just say that even high-quality mic split transformers from Jensen and Lundahl will not handle hot line-level sources without some distortion.

Transformer splitters are really designed for splitting on-stage and sending audio to two differently located systems (where there may be differences in ground potential). If you're just sending line level to two separate recorders, both connected to the same power, use a Y-split.

(Although I think Radial now make a line-level version of the 8ox... but you can't split mics with it. Okay, you probably can, but you shouldn't).

[NorseHorse]

Thanks! I'll check it out.

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by LX3

Check the specs for the actual transformers that the Horizon uses.... Although they're probably no-name transformers, so specs may be hard to come by. But let's just say that even high-quality mic split transformers from Jensen and Lundahl will not handle hot line-level sources without some distortion.

I have 7 of the Horizon mic splitters and didn't even really try their transformers. I bought them used, gutted them and put in Cimson Audio Transformers. The stock transformers are held to the chassis by silicone and have no metal can. Needless to say, if anyone wants to buy 28 Horizin audio transformers I have them here for sale...cheap.

[thenewyear]

Dual AES output from the 1073 DPD lets me run two recorders at 88.2kHz. The main recorder being 002R PTLE with spot mics.

If the interface fails I usually have an original MBox along with me that I can run at 44.1 (never had to do this).

Once I'm back from the session the Audio drive is Carbon Copy Cloned to a second identical drive.

This isn't a fully pro back up strategy and may not meet Remoteness' stringent standards but I've learnt the hard way that this level of back up is an absolute must and so far it has been enough to save my rear end on the rare occasions it's been required.

[desotoslo]

Originally Posted by Don S

For 2 track backup, I simply do a mix from the FF800 out the spidf to an maudio microtrack. Note: This is one of the reasons I chose the FF800 - you can power down the computer, or loose firewire connection and the internal mixer still passes audio at the current mix.

Dear Don,

That is exactly the situation I'm seeking. Do you know of any other interfaces that offer this type of solution? (Where firewire connectivity can be lost, or computer goes bonkers, and the interface still pumps out good signal?)

And the above question in the league of the FF800 . . .

thanks.

[summer_room]

FF400 can do the same thing, but you probably know that...
-jon

[mixedupsteve]

I'm working towards a backup system. The one that I would like is a splitter and monitoring solution in one rack unit (w/solos). Has anyone seen a box like this?

[passion4opera]

Originally Posted by desotoslo

Dear Don,

Do you know of any other interfaces that offer this type of solution? (Where firewire connectivity can be lost, or computer goes bonkers, and the interface still pumps out good signal?)

When I disconnect the firewire cable of the Lynx Aurora the AES output has no interruption of signal as long as DIGITAL OUT is set to AES IN or ANALOG IN (not LSlot).

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

I'm working towards a backup system. The one that I would like is a splitter and monitoring solution in one rack unit (w/solos). Has anyone seen a box like this?

We had a passive transformer isolated splitter box like that (using UTC XFMRs) in the 80s.
It had a momentary push button switch for every input channel.
Depending on how you used it, it either was a channel line checker or solo system.

A chassis mounted XLR was wired to those momentary switches that individually connected to each and every input channel.

When we did line checks we didn't have to plug and unplug a mic into each channel.
All we did was plug the mic into that one XLR and push buttons as needed.

When the line check was over, we could monitor the channel by reversing the circuit and connecting that XLR to a headphone amp. You just pressed the button of the channel you wanted to listen to and it was done.

I want to build a new version of that 20 (plus) year old rig.

We have quite a few XTA DS800 8 channel active splitters that have a solo system that work very well for us. The solo system can be daisy chain to/from each DS800.


.

[NorseHorse]

And more:

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Whether you have or don't have location recording experience you still must employ a backup recorder of some sort.
IMO, it should be equal in track count and quality as the main recording system.
Anything else is not a back up to the main system.
PERIOD; END OF DISCUSSION!

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Whether you have or don't have location recording experience you still must employ a backup recorder of some sort.
IMO, it should be equal in track count and quality as the main recording system.
Anything else is not a back up to the main system.
PERIOD; END OF DISCUSSION!

Agreed. One of my definitions of a professional is: Making a mistake or having equipment failure and nowone knowing. How else can you make this happen without a redundant backup?

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

We had a passive transformer isolated splitter box like that (using UTC XFMRs) in the 80s.
It had a momentary push button switch for every input channel.
Depending on how you used it, it either was a channel line checker or solo system.

A chassis mounted XLR was wired to those momentary switches that individually connected to each and every input channel.

When we did line checks we didn't have to plug and unplug a mic into each channel.
All we did was plug the mic into that one XLR and push buttons as needed.

When the line check was over, we could monitor the channel by reversing the circuit and connecting that XLR to a headphone amp. You just pressed the button of the channel you wanted to listen to and it was done.

I want to build a new version of that 20 (plus) year old rig.

We have quite a few XTA DS800 8 channel active splitters that have a solo system that work very well for us. The solo system can be daisy chain to/from each DS800.


.

Maybe I'll just go ahead and build one myself. I think a modified patchbay would work fine. Just add switches and headphone amp module.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Maybe I'll just go ahead and build one myself. I think a modified patchbay would work fine. Just add switches and headphone amp module.

Cool, but remember not to solo while you're recording since the switch may be heard unless you add additional circuitry to deal with it that issue.

[noamraz]

Originally Posted by LX3

The trick with Y-splits is building a failure-proof way of Y-splitting. It becomes a bit of an engineering challenge when you need to split 16 or 24, or 48 preamp outputs.

As far as i see it, it will be much easier to use a TRS patch in "open" mode in order to split the preamps outputs, it is far less challanging as i find Y-TRS splitters not the easiest to create.

[Gerax]

My backup solution is splitting the signal at the pre/conveters: my pres have built in AD, so I just go form the dual ADAT output (all pres are equipped for S/MUX) to my two recorders, a Lightbridge/Pro Tools MP equipped Dell laptop with external USB 2.0 drive and a Mackie SDR2496 HD recorder. I sync everything using WC and MTC. Works like a charm, everything is in sync and I have an instant digital copy of all the files at the same timecode (which is handy for video involved gigs).

L.G.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Gerax

My backup solution is splitting the signal at the pre/conveters: my pres have built in AD, so I just go form the dual ADAT output (all pres are equipped for S/MUX) to my two

Precisely what I do, too, and one of the reasons I rarely record in 96k...
A sample-accurate backup is a good thing to have, I would say (won't say bit-accurate, because my backups are often 16 bit only).

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by desotoslo

That is exactly the situation I'm seeking. Do you know of any other interfaces that offer this type of solution? (Where firewire connectivity can be lost, or computer goes bonkers, and the interface still pumps out good signal?)
And the above question in the league of the FF800 . . .

Metric Halo interfaces do this no problemo.

The ULN-2 goes a step further and is fully operational as a hardware pre-amp in stand-alone mode with 10 preset mixer/monitoring software configs selectable by front panel switches.

[studer58]

Originally Posted by desotoslo

Dear Don,

That is exactly the situation I'm seeking. Do you know of any other interfaces that offer this type of solution? (Where firewire connectivity can be lost, or computer goes bonkers, and the interface still pumps out good signal?)

And the above question in the league of the FF800 . . .

thanks.

The Echo Audiofire 8 can do this, and probably the 12 also. It worked for me last week when my firewire feed to the laptop dropped out (don't you love that cute little 4 pin FW connector !) but the feed to the eight 1/4" sockets + the SPDIF kept on going (luckily I had a DAT being fed from
that). I should've constructed a mix to a small Mackie from those 1/4" sockets before the DAT, but at least it received the main pair.