Backups are a crutch; Backups are for sissies...

[Shadow_7]

Backups are a crutch.

Backups are for sissies.

Not really, but I can't justify having expensive unused gear at this point.

Korg MR-1000
Shure SM81 (x2)
25' Mogami Gold Cables (x2)
Radio Shack Mic Stand
On Stage stereo bar

Eventually upgrading mics to the higher end, and adding a camcorder sometime this year. Looking for a taller mic stand. Looking for a heftier camcorder stand. Looking for weather proofing so I have no need to pack it in if it rains. And otherwise just getting by without spending more on gear than I have on all of my cars combined.

Please note:

This post (which starts this thread) was post # 23 in the original thread entitled...
Show Me Your Mobile Recording Setup
The original thread started in March 2008. Shadow_7 posted this comment February 24th, 2009.
This discussion got way out of hand and seriouly off topic.
Many of the replies were posted in the original thread before the thread was split up and moved.
The original Shadow_7 post and all relative posts after that were moved here...

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

And otherwise just getting by without spending more on gear than I have on all of my cars combined.

Whoa, I don't have to do too much adding up to figure out that I long-since passed that milestone.

That's a little disturbing.

Ever get the feeling that us audio types have some double standards going on? I'll think twice before spending £50 on a pair of shoes, but I would jump at the chance to pick up some secondhand AD16Xs for five grand or so.

Although maybe it's thanks to the cheap cars and worn-out clothes that I can afford to do that.

[Shadow_7]

Well, I'm budgeting myself. Just trying to keep it simple and mobile. Two channels of audio, and eventually one quality HD video camcorder. But even with relatively expensive gear ($400+ per piece of hardware) it's difficult to get acceptable results IMO. So many pieces of hardware are so almost there. I'm at the point where I'm thinking of ditching the monitors and just playing everything on an Ipod so I notice the deficiencies of my gear less. Ignorance is Bliss.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

Backups are a crutch.

Backups are for sissies.

Not really, but I can't justify having expensive unused gear at this point...

I'm trying to find the logic in this mindset; Perhaps you're being facetious.

IMHO, if you're out there capturing a performance in front of a live audience how can you consider the backup recorder an unused piece of equipment?

Back up gear is an essential part of remote and location recording.
You are dust without a back up when the main system goes down in flames.

...And, remember one thing - you are only as good as your last gig.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

IMHO, if you're out there capturing a performance in front of a live audience how can you consider the backup recorder an unused piece of equipment?

If you don't use the results recorded by said backup recorder, it's UNUSED. If you place 8 mics and only USE 2 of them, then 6 of them are UNUSED. It's nice to have backups, and IF you're getting paid, you HAVE to have them as failure is NOT and option.

But if you're just meandering through life as just a guy with some gear and some courtesies for friends, having backups is pointless as you're not likely to need them, or use them. Except in the worst of conditions where you're ultimately just a guy without gear if you experience a failure and don't happen to have a backup

For the moment, I'm more focused on NOT having a failure. As opposed to having options when I DO have a failure. That $1K in backups could have been put towards $1K in better mics at my current stage of development. I'll likely evolve eventually, but for now it doesn't make sense to have backups, when it doesn't make much business to sense to have gear in the first place.

[Remoteness]

So, let me get this straight; if you were a tight rope walker you would not use a safety net because failure is NOT an option?

You are a brave and fascinating individual; I would never even consider going in that direction.

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

If you don't use the results recorded by said backup recorder, it's UNUSED. If you place 8 mics and only USE 2 of them, then 6 of them are UNUSED. It's nice to have backups, and IF you're getting paid, you HAVE to have them as failure is NOT and option.

But if you're just meandering through life as just a guy with some gear and some courtesies for friends, having backups is pointless as you're not likely to need them, or use them. Except in the worst of conditions where you're ultimately just a guy without gear if you experience a failure and don't happen to have a backup

For the moment, I'm more focused on NOT having a failure. As opposed to having options when I DO have a failure. That $1K in backups could have been put towards $1K in better mics at my current stage of development. I'll likely evolve eventually, but for now it doesn't make sense to have backups, when it doesn't make much business to sense to have gear in the first place.

[Shadow_7]

No, what I'm saying is, if it's unused, why pay extra for it?

I mean sure, the tight rope walker wants a safety net. Everyone wants health insurance, dental insurance, auto insurance, unemployment insurance, and the like. But if you're on a tight budget and never actually end up using any of those things, why have them? (assuming that you NEVER use them of course).

Don't get me wrong, I'm no stranger to plan B and plan C since plan A rarely works out quite as expected. But should I really show up to a church with hydrophone and aqualung because there's a 0.00001% chance it'll be consumed by the great flood? Do I really want to lug that around to EVERY gig?

[bishopthomas]

Shadow, wait until you have a failure. It WILL happen. Then you'll understand...

[Remoteness]

There are two types of Remotesters in the world - The ones that back-up and the ones that don't back-up yet.

Listen, the recorder is NOT "unused" when it's the back-up recorder!
Paying extra for back-up equipment is like paying for that oh so important insurance premium.

Look at it this way, it's an insurance policy for your career.
If you're on a tight budget it's even more important to make sure you're back is covered with regard to guaranteeing a final product for your clients and/or friends.

Remember, the safety net was in use even though the tight rope walker didn't fall.

Furthermore, if you DID show up to a church with scuba gear because you think there's a chance of a flood you better be on a boat of some kind (or below sea level) because you analogy is completely off.

Expecting a flood on dry land especially when there's a 0.00001% chance of it happening is Not the same thing as making sure your arse is covered when there's the possibility of equipment failure.

Don't be a fool; I know you're smarter than that, my man.

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

No, what I'm saying is, if it's unused, why pay extra for it?

I mean sure, the tight rope walker wants a safety net. Everyone wants health insurance, dental insurance, auto insurance, unemployment insurance, and the like. But if you're on a tight budget and never actually end up using any of those things, why have them? (assuming that you NEVER use them of course).

Don't get me wrong, I'm no stranger to plan B and plan C since plan A rarely works out quite as expected. But should I really show up to a church with hydrophone and aqualung because there's a 0.00001% chance it'll be consumed by the great flood? Do I really want to lug that around to EVERY gig?

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Shadow, wait until you have a failure. It WILL happen. Then you'll understand...

Let's keep an open mind and remember that not everyone is running a business!

I bet he already understands. He just isn't doing the same type of gigs that you are. Shadow has expressed before that he is doing a lot of low-key work. Perhaps a back-up recorder isn't the most important thing right now.

When I started out, I was running two MXL 993s through an M-Audio Fast Track Pro. As I started getting more serious, purchasing more gear, and essentially piecing my service together one month at a time, I naturally had to build my MAIN rig before moving on to a BACKUP rig. Mr. 7 has been pretty clear in stating that establishing his MAIN rig is his top priority right now. It'd be rather silly for us to ask him to build the roof of a house without first building the foundation. I wish him the best of luck!

Remember: BABY STEPS!

[Remoteness]

When I built my first rig (in my truck) I didn't have a lot of bread, but I knew we had to make sure we had two tape recorders.

I also, made sure I had a spare tire for the truck even though we rarely needed to change it out.

IMO, back-ups are a key part of location recording whether you're an armature or seasoned professional.

Look, do what you want for now...

Perhaps you may see the light one of these days.

Today, my main rig has a back-up and my back-up rigs have back-ups.
This mindset has nothing to do with whether I'm a business or doing it just for fun.
I want to cover my arse -- PERIOD!

If I was into air-crafts, water-crafts or whatever, I'd be backing myself up in those arenas too.
Work or play what's the difference anyway?

[fifthcircle]

Backups are absolutely essential... And even then you can still get screwed on a live gig.

I did a gig where I forgot my battery backup. The one gig (I always have that stupid heavy thing). Anyways, when the band came down, there was a rush to pull all power and reset the stage. They pulled my power without telling me. My 2-track ended up completely lost as a result. My Pro tools system was fine. Just dropped out of record- left all the files just fine. however, my Fostex flash card recorder lost EVERYTHING. Never thought that would happen. Made a great recording and I ended up screwed because of bad gear design.

Guess what. Next day started shopping for a new recorder. Bought the Marantz rackmount one and I'm fine. Writes new files for every track. Keeps me in the clear.

This is what can happen when you are playing it safe. Ultimately, I saved my butt getting video to give me their sound (that I had been feeding them), but I still had to go back and remix some stuff and start over off the multitrack.

Oh well... Live and learn. To not have a fail-safe backup is just plain stupid.

--Ben

[jayfrigo]

Re: backups - If you don't have two, you don't have any.

We go out on $100,000 shoots, and if our audio fails, the whole show is unusable. It's not just that we missed a cool performance, or we won't get called again. It's real liability. There are dozens of people working, cameras, staging, rentals, hard costs of all kinds in addition to our audio recorders. Who pays for all of that if our audio takes the whole production down? You'd better have a good lawyer and insurance, because they aren't going to let the $100k slide; they're coming after you! (speaking generic "you," not YOU specifically)

For mains, we use either Alesis HD24 XR recorders, or Pro Tools HD (some clients want the pro tools, but all-HD24 is more bulletproof), and have a mixture of HD24 XRs and regular HD24s as redundant backups. Whether it's a 24 track air-pak gig, or 72 tracks in the truck (hopefully soon to be 96), we always roll with two machines for each track.

[Shadow_7]

I understand that backups are important, and as I get into this thing I will likely have them. I've ventured into this thing because of one entity in particular that didn't have a backup. Or at least not enough backups to handle the conditions of the gig. Although the conditions were pretty much the same on the 2nd day and they didn't seem to have the same issues on that day.

Here's the point I'm making. Do you drive your truck with three other trucks in tow because your main one might break down? When you buy a bass boat, do you buy four of them because you might hit a stump / rock and sink one? Do you own four houses because one of them MIGHT burn down? Do you work four fulltime jobs because you might loose one?

My field recorder is HDD based and I know that that HDD is going to fail. Do I have backups, or do I periodically replace that HDD with a more trusted HDD to help ensure that it's NOT going to fail anytime soon? Do I drive my truck until it catches fire, or do I change the oil regularly and keep it maintained? Sure, I'll have a backup as accidents do happen. If I ever start doing this for money. But for now I'm focused on having one quality rig, instead of 4 mediocre rigs.

[Remoteness]

You are missing the point entirely.

I may not have three other trucks in tow when I'm traveling in the remote truck, but I do have an extra water pump, starter, fan belts, oh and a spare tire plus all sorts of stuff that keeps me truckin' because you never know when some thing may break down.

Just because one day worked out doesn't mean the next day will be a-okay.

So what, you change out your hard drive and what happens if someone pulls the power or some other situation that will take you down - then what? How will that new hard drive going to help you then?

[Shadow_7]

I run on batteries of course. A lot of the venues I frequent don't have power anyway. At least not without a 50' or more extension cable. It's why I'm using a field recorder instead of a laptop. I've got a good five hours of life between two sets of batteries. Which is sufficient for most things. And if there happens to be a socket nearby, I can run from that too with my batteries still installed as a backup.

The point of sorts, is that at some point, you have to trust the gear that you have. If you can't do that much, then no number of copies / backups will save you. Especially if you're dealing with factors that the gear can't handle. No power, temps < 40F, temps > 100F, rain, 100mph winds, ....... As I look at all of the backups that Survivorman has and what little good it does him at times.

[Remoteness]

I'm noticing that it is completely pointless to communicate with you on this subject any longer, but...

Okay, what if after reading this thread some crazy arse dude comes up to your one and only trusted battery powered recorder of the gods and smashes it with a sledge hammer, would you have wished you had a back-up then?

I'm sure you will spin something to say and that is why I'm going to look for my old Jethro Tull record and play "Thick as a Brink" a few times just to get into the vibe.

Like I've said before, "There are two types of Remotesters in the world - The ones that back-up and the ones that don't back-up yet."

One of these days it's going to come down on you hard and perhaps you will reflect on all this...

OR NOT!

[NorseHorse]

There are two types of Remotesters in the world (or at least in the forum), those that are running businesses and those that aren't.

Everyone who responded to Shadow_7 admonishing him for not having a backup system also records full time. If you are recording professionally full-time, of course you need back-up system(s). No one is debating that. But pay a visit over to the Low-End Forum. Pay a visit over to the High-End forum. Each is filled with people who record part-time or spare-time and are delighted to have a single basic recording set-up (one channel of Great River is like winning the lottery for many GearSlutz). Why is the Remote Forum so different?

Someone comes here excited about on-site recording with their own set-up and improving their gear and techniques, and they get smoked for not having a business plan (not just referring to this thread)? Maybe he doesn't want to run a business! I was recording for about two-and-a-half years before I decided I wanted to start a bona-fide business. Good thing I didn't join GS back then?

[Remoteness]

Dude, it's a live gig; you only have one shot at it; you're only as good as your last gig.

It doesn't matter if you do it professionally or as a hobby or whatever when you have to tell the client, friend or musician the capture didn't happen.

Haven't you considered all the folks you affect when you loose the only media of that one time event?

Why you can't grasp this mindset is beyond me?

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

There are two types of Remotesters in the world (or at least in the forum), those that are running businesses and those that aren't.

Everyone who responded to Shadow_7 admonishing him for not having a backup system also records full time. If you are recording professionally full-time, of course you need back-up system(s). No one is debating that. But pay a visit over to the Low-End Forum. Pay a visit over to the High-End forum. Each is filled with people who record part-time or spare-time and are delighted to have a single basic recording set-up (one channel of Great River is like winning the lottery for many GearSlutz). Why is the Remote Forum so different?

Someone comes here excited about on-site recording with their own set-up and improving their gear and techniques, and they get smoked for not having a business plan (not just referring to this thread)? Maybe he doesn't want to run a business! I was recording for about two-and-a-half years before I decided I wanted to start a bona-fide business. Good thing I didn't join GS back then?

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Okay, what if after reading this thread some crazy arse dude comes up to your one and only trusted battery powered recorder of the gods and smashes it with a sledge hammer, would you have wished you had a back-up then?

Probably not gonna help in that instance as that guy will likely smash the backup and the backups backup. And I'll probably miss the gig anyway spending some time in lockup for dealing with said individual.

Having a backup at this point effectively cuts the quality and value of my current rig in half since I'll need two of them. And doesn't necessarily make the gear any better suited to deal with whatever caused the failure to start with.

Noting the current crop of SDHC cams that don't seem to handle temps over 100F very well. And tape based cams that don't handle high humidity well. Mics that don't handle high SPLs like thunder, or wind. Batteries that don't handle low temps. And other factors that caused the failure, where the backup may not be any better at handling it. And does little more than buy you another fifteen minutes until it fails too. Assuming that the backup didn't fail before your primary rig.

[Remoteness]

Remember, that sad individual read this thread and only wants to smash your one and only recorder, so...

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Why you can't grasp this mindset is beyond me?

Why you can't grasp that not everyone has money to spend is beyond me! If no one is paying you to record, why would you spend several hundred dollars on a backup recorder? Especially if you only have several hundred dollars to improve/build your main rig.

NOT EVERYONE IS RUNNING A BUSINESS. HENCE, what may be financially essential for you is financially irresponsible for someone else.

And I think everyone in this forum inherently recognizes that backups aren't always essential, particularly when still establishing your main rig. Just visit any of the threads of people looking to build their first rigs - no one suggests that they buy cheap mics so they have money left-over for a backup recorder! Prioritize, prioritize.

Here are some recent threads with people who are starting out. In skimming, please note that no one has recommended backup recorders:

Multi-track Recorders?
Simple setup for recording acoustic guitar
Paying a PREMIUM to Go Mobile
Simple stereo setup for high humidity situation?
Semi-serious remote setup?

And here's a good thread which highlights some of the monetary constraints and choices that people exploring remote recording need to make:

Recording Choir, Organ & 4 Soloists

Basically, what I'm saying is that we need to address each member of the forum on their own terms. We have a wide range of needs and experiences. Flaming someone for not having a backup recorder when they aren't getting paid anything like you (if at all) is crazy. I have a backup audio recorder, but I don't have a backup videocamera. Why not? Simple: I'm rarely getting paid to video events. And if I was, I would probably buy a nicer videocamera before buying a second mid-grade videocamera for "back-up".

[Shadow_7]

If you want to get technical, I do have backups. But they never leave home at this point.

Primary: Korg MR-1000

Backup option 1: Laptop + M-Audio Mobile Pre

Backup option 2: Desktop + Delta 44 + M-Audio DMP3

Backup option 3: Audio Cassette recorder (circa 1980 something) (do they even sell blank tapes anymore?)


And I guess I have backup microphones too.

Primary: Shure SM-81's

Backup: Avenson STO-2's


But I have these units for reasons other than backing up. The mobile pre because it's convenient for archiving tapes and recording from cheap electret type microphones. The delta 44 because it interfaces with my monitors and since I can't edit DSD files on the Korg. Each has their current place based on needs. The field recorder because of battery life, reliability and convenience.

The other options because starting off with a field recorder was not in the original plan. Originally I just wanted to record myself with some basic resemblance of quality. Then a need to multi-track myself. Then a need to take it on location without holding everyone up for fifteen minutes while I set up the gear. And to gain independence from an electrical socket. Since my cables and cords weren't long enough and rehearsal spaces can sometimes be a bit cramped. Or a bit on location (middle of a parking lot). 95% of what I record are rehearsals. For those 3 times a year that I'll attempt to record a performance, I'll think about bringing a backup. Although only the field recorder is currently suited to be used on location. Where exactly is the plug socket halfway down the walkway from the capital steps? And is the city/state going to send me a bill if I use it?

[Remoteness]

See Christian, he HAS back-ups, but he doesn't NEED them...

It's not about the bread or lack of it, or if he's doing it for money or not or even if it's a business.

That's remarkable!

Yo', tear down that safety net; I don't NEED to fail!

[Shadow_7]

All I'm saying is address the reason for failure FIRST. If your device(s) failed due to rain and your backups aren't waterproof, little good they do you. Because you didn't address the reason for failure. If you fall because there wasn't a rope, or it broke, or it wasn't secured at one end. Then you'll probably benefit better from addressing the former instead of the backup. Sure the backup will save your life, but you still fell, and failed at your primary goal. If you can eliminate the need for a backup, you'll end up with a better end result a lot more often IMO. And that 0.0001% rest of the time the backup will save your life.

[Murton]

The problem is, you can't minimize the risk of unpredictable causes of failure to your primary unless you implement a secondary recorder. Implementing a secondar recorder will in itself protect you against a while horde of unpredictable issues such as malfunction.

I am building a portable recording rig which can go one of two ways, ADAT based or EtherSound based. BOTH options provide an easy means of incorporating a backup recorder into the loop to allow seamless backup of the primary recorder to WHEN the primary fails, and it WILL fail because ALL technology is predictable in that it WILL FAIL, the secondary will happilly provide th safety net. In the unlikely event in which extremes cause your primary to fail (Physical damage, temp fire etc) then there's nothing much you could do anyway and you would be screwed either way if you had a secondary or not.

It's the fact that the most often times when your primary fails, the secondary won't fall to the same problem at the same time, unless it is for example power related, being the most common cause of failure in my experience.

In my rig I currently record to my laptop using Pro Tools M-Powered. If it fails (And it does, interface losing synch, power failure, Laptop error, Laptop power failure) I currently have no backup and I would loose money from the gig not being able to present the client with a product. My future rig (In a couple of months) WILL have a backup recorder that should not be effected by these issues, even power, with a power distro and backup UPS to last a little while until I can get my main recorder. If the whole rig goes does, there's the likely chance the actual show stopped aswell.

If short, if you are serious, get a backup, if you aren't serious, don't! It's a waste of your money, but if you are serious, it's a waste of your money NOT to have a backup in place.

[edbro]

I run live sound for alot of Robbie Fulks private party work. I was recording the shows for my archives. He asked if he could offer it up to the client to sweeten the deal for using me instead of a local sound company he might not know. I said sure but the quality varies as the live sound comes 1st. Everything was fine till a wedding in Baltimore. The groom had put a rider in the contract that a groomsman could get a board line out to record. No problem. Said groomsman saw my set up and thought it was better, so he didn't bother with his minidisc. Well, something went wrong with my USB connection and the whole recording sounded like it was recorded at the bottom of the harbor . It was painfully hard tell the groom, Yeah it was great show, sorry I f#*%ed up your keepsake. The next party I lugged out my ADATS as back up and then moved on to an HD24 after that.
The pain of having to explain why a recording didn't work is greater than the weight, space, and time that back up gear takes to set up.

[Remoteness]

If you fall and that safety net isn't there to save your arse how would you figure out what went wrong when you may not be around to address it?

You know what, you seem to know exactly what you want to do.
I really don't care if you use a back-up or not...

Don't take my word for it.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

If you fall and that safety net isn't there to save your arse how would you figure out what went wrong when you may not be around to address it?

Well, Hopefully the guy recording it wasn't where I landed. And if he had a backup, hopefully it wasn't also where I landed.

[huub]

This is becoming a long and pointless discussion but anywayyy;
Obviously I never ever record without a backup (although, I do rarely, if the stereo mix is going to be used primarily and the multitrack is for backup, and the production is lowbudget..)

BUT... if I record a gig for a friends band or whatever, I'm really not going to bother with ups'es, back ups and what not.. if the recording fails I'll say: sorry dude, my hard disk crashed or whatever.. who cares, it's for fun..