Sennheiser "rebate": they have to be kidding!

[Clueless]

I just learned that the FCC is reallocating the "C" band to public emergency broadcast and telecom companies, and thus the 3 receivers and 6 transmitters I purchased two years ago are going to be out of compliance Real Soon Now. Such is life.

What boggles my mind is Sennheiser's response to this.

Instead of offering a program to re-chip the units, they are offer a rebate that is worth less than half of what I paid for these things. Where's the "green" thinking in taking parts of the market and replacing them with small amounts of cash, versus rehabilitating them for a fair price. I'd be happy to spend the $100 on the hour of shop time (max) it would take to fix these things. Do I really need to throw away $1500 worth of gear for a lousy $400 rebate?

Granted, they do offer to service 3000-series and 5000-series units, but I still have a very hard time believing they cannot mod a bunch of 500 series G2 devices bought new in 2007 for a fair price.

Anybody else sharing my pain?

Anybody living in a zone that still respects the "C" band who wants to buy my units for a fair price?

[bishopthomas]

When I read that on the web site I was shocked myself. I don't own any C range equipment but the "rebate" program is nothing to get excited about. I don't think this is an acceptable solution and if I were in your shoes I would be VERY upset. By the way, you're just now finding out about this? It was supposed to happen this month but got pushed back to June, so I guess you lucked out a bit there.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

When I read that on the web site I was shocked myself. I don't own any C range equipment but the "rebate" program is nothing to get excited about. I don't think this is an acceptable solution and if I were in your shoes I would be VERY upset. By the way, you're just now finding out about this? It was supposed to happen this month but got pushed back to June, so I guess you lucked out a bit there.

What's really infuriating is that I needed these microphones in a hurry two years ago, and the vendor offered to complete my order with a bunch of C channel units he had lying around. Now I know why.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Clueless

I'd be happy to spend the $100 on the hour of shop time (max) it would take to fix these things.

Er - to change band C into band A or B requires the exchange of the RF board in both transmitter and receiver + the time to do it and re-program.

I guess the cost in the US would be circa $300 per system - not $100.

[bishopthomas]

That's still better than the current "solution."

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

That's still better than the current "solution."

I copy that!

[Sounds Great]

What is the C band?

I have an AKG SR4000 system. Frequency range is 650 to 863 MHz.

[bishopthomas]

Sennheiser's C range is 740-776 MHz. The "white space" frequencies are 698-806 MHz and will become unusable for wireless mics. So as long as you stay away from the 700 MHz range you should be fine.

[Pohaku]

And, interestingly, there are still vendors selling 700 MHZ units out there. That spectrum has now largely been auctioned off by the FCC and use of that spectrum by other devices, including wireless microphone units, in-ear monitors, etc., was to cease on February 17 (same day as the original advent of TV digital switchover).

Technically, all low power wireless mic/audio units require an FCC license. But that license is only available to certain kinds of entities. Your garden variety consumer/musician is not one of the eligible licensable entities. In fact as of last year only 952 licenses have ever been issued. Yet there are hundreds of thousands - perhaps up to a million - of these units that have been sold to consumers. Technically, operation of a wireless unit without a license is a felony and may subject you to confiscation of your gear and fines of up to $11,000 per day. You might want to check this out:

Media Access Project: On behalf of Public Interest Spectrum Coalition, Media Access Project Files Roadmap to Protect New Public Safety and Commercial Wireless Services From Unauthorized Use of Wireless Microphones; Asks for Amnesty for Broadway, Chur

Down load and read the Complaint from the link on the bottom of this page.

The FCC is apparently now investigating the sales practices of the major wireless microphone manufacturers. I'm not holding my breath.

Fascinating reading (OK, OK, I'm a lawyer, but it's an interesting read nonetheless)

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Sennheiser's C range is 740-776 MHz. The "white space" frequencies are 698-806 MHz and will become unusable for wireless mics. So as long as you stay away from the 700 MHz range you should be fine.

The white spaces are spectrum below 698 that is being left after the analog TV transmissions stop. Above 698 has been sold off to telecom companies mostly with a small area reserved for public use.
White space devices will have to have spectrum sensing abilities (or be under the controll of a device that has it) to prevent interfering with wireless microphones in use. It might take several years for them to achieve this capability. In addition some major cities will have channels reserved for wireless microphone use. Licenced wireless users (not us for the most part) will be able to register their site in a database and white space devices will not be able to use that spectrum in that location.

I agree that the wireless rebate deals stink and you can buy a mic for less street prices than your net cost would be using the rebates. The wireless makers have know about the planned sale of 698-806 for years and continued to advertise these products. The white space rules only came down a few months ago and Shure made a good case but the internet people won.

[mixedupsteve]

More "fun" reading:
http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Da...C-08-260A1.pdf

[mixedupsteve]

Technically, all low power wireless mic/audio units require an FCC license. But that license is only available to certain kinds of entities. Your garden variety consumer/musician is not one of the eligible licensable entities. In fact as of last year only 952 licenses have ever been issued.

That's right and most people never knew it. It was never enforced. I guess the FCC figured a video on Youtube of agents hauling off a preacher with a lav mic wouldn't be too cool.

Actually one of the good things that has come of this white space ruling is that now our unlicensed usage ( referred to in the deliberations as "incumbent" )will become legal.

[Remoteness]

Here's a link to Sennheiser's online Rebate Form in PDF...
http://www.sennheiserusa.com/media/p...nge_Rebate.pdf

[Pohaku]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

That's right and most people never knew it. It was never enforced. I guess the FCC figured a video on Youtube of agents hauling off a preacher with a lav mic wouldn't be too cool.

Actually one of the good things that has come of this white space ruling is that now our unlicensed usage ( referred to in the deliberations as "incumbent" )will become legal.

True, hopefully existing gear that can operate in the white spaces will meet FCC certification requirements. Barring some additional FCC action, however, it will still be illegal to use the many 700 MHZ units out there.

[thegreatcodfish]

So wait, has it already been decided that operating in the 700MHz region is illegal, or is it just likely to happen? This is the first I've heard about this and I have 4 devices in that range, all Sennheiser of course. They are fairly old too so I will get pennies back for them and can't really afford to replace them either...

[Pohaku]

It's a done deal.

[thegreatcodfish]

Originally Posted by Pohaku

It's a done deal.

Can you point me to the FCC decision (Or whoever)? I've looked through the one that was posted and it explicitly stated that they are not altering the channels that wireless microphones can operate on (Page 54).

edit: Not trying to be inflammatory, just trying to learn. I'm not good at legal mumbo-jumbo.

[bishopthomas]

Just do a Google search for "wireless microphone white space." Or go to fohonline.com or prosoundweb.com.

[mixedupsteve]

the link I posted was information related to the White Space decision which is <698MHZ.
The 698-806 bands were placed into public bands and private bands. The private bands were sold off in regional slices to many companies. This was called Auction 73.
Two entirely separate things.
Unlicensed usage of wireless mics has been illegal prior to this happening. It just wasn't enforced. It's possible that the 698-806 range ban will be enforced now.

[thegreatcodfish]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

the link I posted was information related to the White Space decision which is <698MHZ.
The 698-806 bands were placed into public bands and private bands. The private bands were sold off in regional slices to many companies. This was called Auction 73.
Two entirely separate things.
Unlicensed usage of wireless mics has been illegal prior to this happening. It just wasn't enforced. It's possible that the 698-806 range ban will be enforced now.

That makes sense then. Thanks everyone. Time for an upgrade I guess. I don't suppose the gov will give us coupons like they did for the DTV boxes...

[Pohaku]

Here's the August NPRM which was adopted unanimously.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-08-188A1.pdf

The subsequent November Order specifies the frequency bands at which wireless mics can legally operate. It excludes the 700 MHZ band.

As noted above, unlicensed use of wireless mics and devices in the 700 MHZ spectrum has always been illegal. Historically it wasn't enforced and there were only very few licensees. Most users of wireless mics and related gear would not have even qualified to be a licensee. With the auction of the 700 MHZ spectrum and its use by public safety organizations and others, enforcement is thought to become more likely. The "Safe Harbor" for wireless microphone use provided in the November 4 Memorandum Opinion and Order does not apply to the 700 MHZ band and equipment that operates there.

[gtrplayer287]

Hi,
I work for Sennheiser here in the NYC area. I wanted to clarify one point.
One person wrote: "I agree that the wireless rebate deals stink and you can buy a mic for less street prices than your net cost would be using the rebates."
This statement is actually not true, as we will send you the rebate money no matter what you paid as "street price".
If you read the rebate form that Steve posted a link to, you'll see that we rebate the money to you after you buy the new unit. All you need is proof that you bought the new unit and then return the old 700mhz unit to us along with receipt and UPC for the new unit you just bought. So your cost will be "street price" minus the rebate.
Josh

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by gtrplayer287

Hi,
I work for Sennheiser here in the NYC area. I wanted to clarify one point.
One person wrote: "I agree that the wireless rebate deals stink and you can buy a mic for less street prices than your net cost would be using the rebates."
This statement is actually not true, as we will send you the rebate money no matter what you paid as "street price".
If you read the rebate form that Steve posted a link to, you'll see that we rebate the money to you after you buy the new unit. All you need is proof that you bought the new unit and then return the old 700mhz unit to us along with receipt and UPC for the new unit you just bought. So your cost will be "street price" minus the rebate.
Josh

I agree your tiered system is pretty fair. My statement was based on the original offer made by Shure about 6 months ago. I'm not sure Sennheiser even had a rebate plan then.

[yoav1234]

Originally Posted by gtrplayer287

Hi,
I work for Sennheiser here in the NYC area. I wanted to clarify one point.
One person wrote: "I agree that the wireless rebate deals stink and you can buy a mic for less street prices than your net cost would be using the rebates."
This statement is actually not true, as we will send you the rebate money no matter what you paid as "street price".
If you read the rebate form that Steve posted a link to, you'll see that we rebate the money to you after you buy the new unit. All you need is proof that you bought the new unit and then return the old 700mhz unit to us along with receipt and UPC for the new unit you just bought. So your cost will be "street price" minus the rebate.
Josh

and what happend if I do not have the recipt for the original equipment and therefore I cannot show when did I buy it and from who?
would they still give me the rebate? they can probebly locate the mfctr date using the serial, will the do that?

thanks

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by yoav1234

and what happend if I do not have the recipt for the original equipment and therefore I cannot show when did I buy it and from who?
would they still give me the rebate? they can probebly locate the mfctr date using the serial, will the do that?

It's the receipt for the *new* unit you just bought - *not* the old original unit; as I read it.

[wshaw]

So does this mean that wireless mics in the C range will not work, or does it mean that operating them will be unlawful?

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by wshaw

So does this mean that wireless mics in the C range will not work, or does it mean that operating them will be unlawful?

Unlawful. Google (and others) now own what once belonged to the public.

[wshaw]

OK. Thanks.

I have an old wireless that I use as an audience mic during question and answer sessions sometimes. I don't think I'm going to worry about it . . .

[Jim vanBergen]

We can't blame the wireless manufacturers for RF issues, whether it's the fact that telecom/PDA companies bought off the spectrum from the FCC, or for the cost of re-chipping systems.

I find the cost of any of the Evo's is SO cost effective (and inexpensive, for a solid system!) that the rebate is a good deal. Shure has been amenable to similar rebates, but no one is making $$ on this, and it's hurting us all.

Again, we can't blame a German manufacturer for what the USA does with its frequency spectrum, or what they charge for their services. Sennheiser's products are by and large, excellent, and their RF is top in the industry.

JvB

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

We can't blame the wireless manufacturers for RF issues, whether it's the fact that telecom/PDA companies bought off the spectrum from the FCC, or for the cost of re-chipping systems.

I find the cost of any of the Evo's is SO cost effective (and inexpensive, for a solid system!) that the rebate is a good deal. Shure has been amenable to similar rebates, but no one is making $$ on this, and it's hurting us all.

Again, we can't blame a German manufacturer for what the USA does with its frequency spectrum, or what they charge for their services. Sennheiser's products are by and large, excellent, and their RF is top in the industry.

JvB

It certainly isn't their fault but I feel that they should have required their US dealers to disclose the situation to buyers. All this started happening long before the final ruling by the FCC.