Paying a PREMIUM to Go Mobile

[Chris69]

This round of DAW upgrade plans included a Laptop computer (Dell Studio 1735) to be used with an Echo Audifire 8.

Unfortunately, many of the Dell computers suffer from an incurable DPC latency spike every 5 seconds, which is independant of the OS and cannot be cured by disabling features. Many Dell owners are waiting for the magic BIOS update that will fix this.

So my plans are changed and I am speccing out an inexpensive AMD Phenom II x4 to be rackmounted. Components come in at a reasonable 500-600 depending on options, and this is for a computer at the high/mid range of performance.

(And I can use it with my old Echo PCI interface.)

But this really opens my eyes to how many sacrifices are made to use a notebook. The Dell CoreII Duo notebook costs twice as much and offers about half the absolute performance. Its buggy, and many notebooks have compatibilty problems and lack upgrdability.

With a desktop I can add PCIe versions of UAD-2 and Duende. With a notebook, I am limited to buying a separate cardbus FW interface and getting FW versions of these products if they exist at all (and crossing my fingers.)

And from my research, Firewire interfaces do not offer quite as low latency as their PCI counterparts. (Someone please correct me if Im wrong on this, I just dont trust FW over PCI at this point).

So how much have I given up building a rackmountable solution. Well, it is a 4-space rack and I plan to put it in a 4 space travel case. If I ever want to record remotely, I can just take this along with my other gear.

So WHY THE HELL is everyone going with a notebook+FW solution. Just seems crazy to me right now. Its like we are trying to repeat the compatibilty nightmares of the late 90s all over again (and giving up a hefty stake of our new found computing power in the process.)

Enlighten me please.

[aussie_techie]

i moved to a macbook a couple of years ago now for compatibility. I needed a new notebook anyway so that was a given and at the time there were no reasonable priced windows based options that would of been compatible. not to mention the **** around you always have to do with most notebooks anyway so the choiice was easy. so i paid a premium for the Apple name but it was still cheaper than a windows solution while being much easier.

FW works well under OS X so using audio interfaces and external hard disks has never been a problem. i run a Gbit LAN for data transfers so storage and backups are easy via either method.

a small 12" system also means its very easy to carry around. upgradeable is still compromised in such a small form factor but the turn over of computers is so quick that ill just buy a new system for my production work in a couple of years and ive still got a fairly good notebook for my other work where i still need to be mobile at time.

i dont want to start a mac vs pc argument (well OS X vs Windows as the hardware is basically the same) but its what i found at the time and what sound like is happening again. every situation is different so nothing is going to be right for everyone anyway.

[DCtoDaylight]

I agree with AussieTechie - a MacBook + FW interface is an awesome combo, and with the better interfaces you get very close to zero latency. I don't have experience on the PC side, but I have to believe this would be possible there, too.

You *do* still pay a premium over a desktop, and trade off some crunching power, but there are some advantages, too, like fewer cables and power supplies to worry about, no fragile monitor to schlep, and the fact that a laptop essentially has a built-in uninterruptible power supply.

It all depends on your priorities, I think - if you do mostly studio work and the occasional remote job, the rackmount option is probably a good one. But if you're working remotely on a regular basis, need to be unobtrusive, and/or prefer to spend your time on mic setup rather than machine setup, the laptop route can be pretty slick.

If you really want to dig into this question, you might re-post this question over in the Remote forum - the folks there have a ton of experience with portable rigs ranging from pocket-sized to truck-sized.

Whichever way you go, good luck with the new setup.

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight

there are some advantages, too, like fewer cables and power supplies to worry about, no fragile monitor to schlep, and the fact that a laptop essentially has a built-in uninterruptible power supply.

Thats another point i forgot to mention, for the price you should be comparing a notebook to a desktop with keyboard mouse, a small monitor and a small UPS.

[Corran]

If I had to make my mobile rig based around a computer, then I'd build a rackmount PC. I could fit it in 2 spaces, and figure out a way to store and use a mouse/keyboard/LCD monitor.

I used a laptop like three times when I first started out. The third time I had a dropout in the middle of a tune. I was running a really, really simple 2-channel USB device direct into Cakewalk 9. Shouldn't have happened - but it did. Anyway, I have never gone on location with a computer again.

Notebooks are just not as reliable in my experience as desktops - which is why if I had to I'd make a "desktop."

On a related note, I find that recordings made with a laptop and for instance an M-audio firewire input sound flat, boring, and just bad in general (I have heard several). I just think a laptop limits you a lot if you are recording on site. Now, my plan in the future is to have my M-audio Lightbride hooked to my HD24XR into a laptop purely for backup purposes. I only wish the little mini laptops on the market now (netbooks) had a firewire port and sufficient power to use, so I could have the smallest footprint possible.

[moon_unit]

Originally Posted by Corran

On a related note, I find that recordings made with a laptop and for instance an M-audio firewire input sound flat, boring, and just bad in general (I have heard several).

Oh boy. I hope this doesn't spark a "which laptop sounds warmer and punchier" debate.

[mikeyr4444]

If you're recording on location, does latency really matter all that much as compared to studio work? And what do people mean by almost zero latency, I never see any figures attached. I have output latency around 12ms, but I can't hear it so it's not too bad for me, though some might shudder at that number.

I am having trouble with my setup, but that's because Dell likes to hardwire all the busses into one big mess. Hopefully I have my interface not dropping monitoring any more...kudos to Focusrite for having solid product and help.

Dude, don't get a Dell. For recording.

[KeithMoonwannabe]

I've been using a laptop for recording for about 6 years now.

DELL sucks so that was a bad choice. If you buy a decent laptop with GOOD parts inside and you know what to look for in a recording PC (be it notebook or desktop) than you should be fine.

I never had problems with 3 interfaces on my old Sony laptop (granted they were all firewire).

And now that my Acer is fully up and running I have yet to have problems (but I have vista so I won't hold my breath).

I will say that a desktop, especially the rackmounted one is a better idea overall. Especially when you consider it as a long term investment rather than a disposable device. You can upgrade and change parts in a desktop and use it for years and years. A laptop typically is only going to get you a handful of years (many tell me I was lucky to have my Sony with no problems until the end of year five when I had motherboard issues). I've seen some nice cases and rack systems for mobile rigs that supported the keyboard, mouse, and lcd. So in a few years they should be all over unless laptops over saturate the lands.

[rackdude]

Originally Posted by mikeyr4444

If you're recording on location, does latency really matter all that much as compared to studio work? And what do people mean by almost zero latency, I never see any figures attached. I have output latency around 12ms, but I can't hear it so it's not too bad for me, though some might shudder at that number.

Man, 12ms can be pretty bad if you are trying to play a vst synth.

[mikeyr4444]

Originally Posted by rackdude

Man, 12ms can be pretty bad if you are trying to play a vst synth.

Wouldn't the ram make the difference there? I play vst's a lot and don't experience any delay in signal from me hitting the key to the monitor spitting out the sound, and it all being recorded in time...

[matskull]

Why don't you get a 24 track recorder?
I'd trust that a lot more then a laptop.

[Shadow_7]

I tried the laptop plus interface route. First time out, I set it and forgot it, and checked in an hour later. About five minutes in, someone kicked the mic cable, and jerked the interface and disrupted the USB connection enough that the sound app crashed and stopped recording after five minutes. So I missed over half of the rehearsal because of that.

Also I didn't have choice mic placement, since I was limited to a power tether, which was on the wrong wall, plus length of cables. 25' sounds extremely long on paper for some reason, but in real life is nothing after 6'+ up from the base on a mic stand. Factor in poor battery life on a laptop and the 15+ minutes to boot, setup a session and start recording, and it was obvious to me to go with a dedicated recorder, if only for the quick setup and longer battery life. YMMV

[Chris69]

Thanks for everyones response. Seems like the guys who are recording on location tend to trust a dedicated recorder over a computer or notebook.

The whole idea of an all in one notebook + FW interface was really sexy until I thought it through. If I am ever going mobile, the computer is just one piece of many, so having a notebook doesnt really gain me anything, in fact may be more cumbersome than a desktop built into a rack (with mic pres, mixer, and other stuff).

So I'm stuck with this crappy Dell. My AthlonXP smokes it in terms of latency and all around performance (although about half as many plugs) Worst possible choice for audio, lol. (Even disabling everything in deveice manager does not solve DPC spikes. )

Laptops and Firewire, I am SO over you!

[Corran]

Well I guess we changed your mind!

I actually bought my HD24XR for about the same price as a nice new laptop and decent Firewire interface. Gotta love the used market right now. At least from a buyer's perspective...

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Corran

Well I guess we changed your mind!

I actually bought my HD24XR for about the same price as a nice new laptop and decent Firewire interface. Gotta love the used market right now. At least from a buyer's perspective...

What are the converters comparable to?

[Corran]

Honestly I personally haven't compared them to anything. But I notice a huge difference from my old recorder, the Korg D888. Others on this forum have said they absolutely kill mid to high price converters, such as the Lynx Aurora I remember specifically somebody saying.

In terms of per channel cost, the HD24XR has gotta be the best deal in converters by miles.

[zmoorhs]

Originally Posted by Chris69

With a desktop I can add PCIe versions of UAD-2 and Duende. With a notebook, I am limited to buying a separate cardbus FW interface and getting FW versions of these products if they exist at all (and crossing my fingers.)

Have you thought about going with a laptop + 2 slot magma PCI or PCIe instead of FW? I'm not saying it would necessarily be any better a solution than what you're planning with the 4u rack PC, but it's certainly not the case that FW is the only interface option with a laptop. Magma gear isn't cheap to buy new, but you see it 2nd hand for decent prices quite often. From what I've read, you need to make sure that you've got a cardbus type that's recommended though, since some laptop cardbuses are basically mince & don't work well with magma solutions.

[Shadow_7]

The one advantage of the laptop was that I could burn an audio CD of what I just recorded before driving home. And many times I could do that before the end of rehearsal remarks and such were over. Versus waiting two or four weeks for the next rehearsal to pass off the media from the last rehearsal. Pluses and minuses either way. Since I was performing in the groups I was recording, it made sense for me to go the quickest and least (on location) labor intensive route.

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Corran

Honestly I personally haven't compared them to anything. But I notice a huge difference from my old recorder, the Korg D888. Others on this forum have said they absolutely kill mid to high price converters, such as the Lynx Aurora I remember specifically somebody saying.

In terms of per channel cost, the HD24XR has gotta be the best deal in converters by miles.

pretty good deal then!

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

The one advantage of the laptop was that I could burn an audio CD of what I just recorded before driving home. And many times I could do that before the end of rehearsal remarks and such were over. Versus waiting two or four weeks for the next rehearsal to pass off the media from the last rehearsal. Pluses and minuses either way. Since I was performing in the groups I was recording, it made sense for me to go the quickest and least (on location) labor intensive route.

A lot of recorders do that as well (burn cd).

[KeithMoonwannabe]

maybe older laptops take like 15 minutes to load up.

My new one with a centrino 2 core duo with 4 gigs of ram takes a total of probably 2-5 minutes to start up and get the program and interface control panel up and running. that's not an exaggeration. If your computer isn't spec'd out to really handle music apps of course it's gonna take forever (ie a big fast hard drive or two, the most ram you can get, and a really cool fast and efficient processor). And a lot of people I've seen on location have a whole bunch of crap running on their system. If I'm doing music I have wireless/internet disabled and no other programs running in the background. Pretty much the OS, Saffire control panel, and Reaper are all that's running.

However I am a fan of just a nice console to an Alesis HD24.

I also like standalone multitrack recorders.

just depends on your preference there really are pros and cons to any method of location recording.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by matskull

A lot of recorders do that as well (burn cd).

yeah, but with the PC, I could edit out the twenty minutes of useful audio from the four hour rehearsal before burning. And burn multiple copies for each of the caption heads before heading out the door. Not always an option though as once rehearsal ended, many times everyone just wanted to get out of dodge and not hang for twenty minutes waiting on me.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe

maybe older laptops take like 15 minutes to load up.

By 15 minute setup, I mean the second trip to the car to get the laptop and interface (the first trip being for mics, stands, and cables). Then the moving of a chair or table near an outlet. Breaking out the laptop and plug for it. Connecting the interface, booting the laptop, launching the recording software, configuring the software and start recording. Not including all of the other stuff you've got to do to setup the mics and cables. Sure it only takes 2 minutes to boot, but that's two minutes that everyone is staring at and waiting on YOU.

With my current setup, I've got it all cabled up before I leave the car. It's all tied up to one mic stand so one trip. I'm in the door on location and 15 seconds from powering up and recording with my Korg MR-1000. Add another two minutes if I want to save my batteries and run from a power tether (optional).

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

yeah, but with the PC, I could edit out the twenty minutes of useful audio from the four hour rehearsal before burning. And burn multiple copies for each of the caption heads before heading out the door. Not always an option though as once rehearsal ended, many times everyone just wanted to get out of dodge and not hang for twenty minutes waiting on me.

I'm pretty sure you can do that too with a recorder these days but in the end it's up to you.

[jimcroisdale]

I went through this a few months ago, when speccing my mobile rig. I went with a laptop, but for a while after I was terrified that this was a BIG mistake.

Software and hardware issues all had to be sorted before the system would work. Rolling back to XP solved most problems but nearly didn't happen because the graphics drivers were laptop-specific (as most are) and wouldn't install. By pure chance I installed SP3 and THEN tried to install the graphics drivers. Luckily it worked.

The only downside for a racked up PC is weight, as far as I can see.

Join a gym, and man up.

Jim