Recording Choir, Organ & 4 Soloists

[Rob K]

Hi all,

I've been reading and absorbing a lot of the great advice in these forums for a while now, but as no two location recordings are likely to be the same I wondered if anyone would be able to help out with some advice for my particular scenario..

On 4th of April, I'm going to be recording a 90-piece choir, backed by a church organ, accompanied by 4 soloists. They will be performing:

Howells: Requiem
Tippett: Spirituals
Britten: Rejoice in the Lamb

I'm bricking it slightly, as I've never done this before, but they are kindly letting me record them for the experience.

Here are the key facts:

1) I have a stereo pair of SE Electronics' SE1A microphones, a Groovetubes GT55, a Microtech Gefell UMT800 (I can borrow it from work..) and a Shure SM58.

2) I have a budget of around £200 for new microphones.

3) The soloists will be performing both as individuals and as a group of up to four, so I will need more than one mic to cover them all.

4) This is the organ: All Saints Kingston - The Frobenius Organ

5) Tracks are no object- I have up to 16 (ProjectMix IO with a MOTU 896 plugged in via SPDIF for the superior preamps)

My current strategy is thus:

• ORTF with the SE1As on the choir
• Additional ORTF Stereo pair pointing up from the front of the 'stage' to capture the soloists.
• Not sure about the organ - I have read that an Omni from a distance is the way to go, but I prefer the idea of getting in slightly closer with a cardioid (maybe the Geffell?) in order to get clarity / note separation - I can add extra reverb later if necessary. The organ is likely to sit at the back of the mix anyway, so any muddiness will mean the organ will get lost behind the choir.

I would rather have got a few more dynamics like the SM58 and mic'd each soloist individually, but I can't really afford this, and I don't want them to get in the way of the performance.

Once it's done, I'll share the recording here!

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

[Recording David]

OK, your ORTF pair on the choir will be fine but I would also recommend a pair of omni outriggers panned hard L & R. I would use a pair of omnis for the organ.

I would use your £200 to rent mics for the gig as IMO you'd do better like this than use what you have. I use FX Rentals in Ealing. They actually only charge half of what they say on their website and the service is excellent.

Leave your SM58 at home - totally unsuitable for this kind of work.

So, assuming you rent...

4 x Neumann TLM170 for the soloists - IMO they will need one each to do the job properly. Place 3-4 ft in front of each singer.

2 x Schoeps CMC6/MK2S omnis for the organ.

2 x Schoeps CMC6/MK2S omnis for choir outriggers.

You'll want to use the same pres on all channels.

I'd imagine you could rent the above for about £150 - you couldn't buy anything with your £200 that would enhance the gig with the gear you currently have.

[0VU]

That organ is a lovely instrument. I recorded some sessions of Bach on it not long after it was completed. Beautiful tone and extremely well matched to the building.

You need to bear in mind when selecting mics and techniques for this performance that the organ is along one side wall of the church nave (the North side iirr) and therefore will be sounding to one side of the choir and soloists. This will (should) to some extent affect your choice of mics and mic techniques.

With a budget of only £200 and the mics you have, I'd suggest that you forget about buying anything and spend some money hiring decent mics. Richmond Film Services are local to that area (yes - they're in Richmond) and their range and hire prices are second to none. You'd be able to get hold of far better mics than £200 will ever buy you for far less money. Then it's just a matter of choosing mics and techniques and calling RFS too book them. (They even supply mic clips and cables (normally 10 metre) with each mic and you can hire any extra stands you might want from them too.)

I very much doubt you could need 16 mics/channels to record this show but it's nice to have the option I suppose.

Forget about the SM58 or micing anything, especially soloists, with dynamics.

[NorseHorse]

I suppose it depends on your goals. Since you aren't getting paid (right?), I wouldn't recommend renting mics. Just not a good financial decision on a freebie and it's probably more important to get familiar with your OWN gear and what it can do.

However, if you are looking to use this recording as a "calling card" and want to do the absolute best job possible, then perhaps you would consider the rental fee an "investment" which will bring in future gigs. In which case, the above suggestions have some great info. (But remember, you'll have to keep renting them if clients expect the same quality.)

Yes, leave the SM58s at home.

[Rob K]

Hi all - many thanks for your replies.. Very interesting and useful to hear from someone who has already recorded there!

I think I have to go with NorseHorse here: I would dearly love to hire some fantastic pro microphones for this, but I can't really justify that expense unfortunately.. I'm not being paid for the recording, and I don't need to make it a "calling card" recording so any money I do spend, I'd like it to be on kit I can use again in the future, even if it isn't pro quality.. I can always upgrade later once I've gained a bit more experience.

I could probably stretch a bit beyond £200, but I'd like to try and get some decent results with gear that's budget but acceptable.. I know this isn't an ideal situation, but it's where I find myself!

David, what is your response to my thoughts that mic'ing the organ a bit closer with a couple of cardioids will help me to achieve clarity? Most of the recordings I've heard with Omnis make the organ sound a little distant, with individual notes a little hard to pick out at times.

Interesting to hear your views on dynamics: I was always under the impression that a dynamic through a decent pre-amp could stand up fairly well in a recording, if processed well..

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Rob K

David, what is your response to my thoughts that mic'ing the organ a bit closer with a couple of cardioids will help me to achieve clarity? Most of the recordings I've heard with Omnis make the organ sound a little distant, with individual notes a little hard to pick out at times.

If the instrument sounds distant and lacking clarity then that's to do with the mics being placed too far from the instrument, not from using omnis.

Omnis are almost always used to record the organ because of their generally superior bass response to cardioids, and of course they will record the (hopefully fabulous) acoustic space in which the instrument resides.

If you are resolved to just using the gear you have for the gig then I don't really know what to suggest. With the gear you have you'll really struggle to make a good job of it and nothing that can be bought with £200 will make an appreciable difference - of course I understand if money's tight then that's that, but that's my honest appraisal! You could use the ORTF as a main pair and spot the organ, but your soloists will lack definition because the ORTF pair would have to be placed about 8ft high.

Dynamic mics are virtually never used in classical recording - I have certainly never heard of it.

[Rob K]

Thinking about it again, it seems a good idea to focus my budget on just one or two mics for the purpose of recording the organ (possibly omni's if they really are the best way to go) and making the best use I can of the GT55 and the Gefell to capture the soloists. Not ideal, I know, but better than spreading my budget too thin on a bunch of really crappy mics.

I might just about be able to stretch to a pair of Rode NT55s- If I cycle to work every day for 2 months!

[NorseHorse]

If you are looking for an extra pair of mics that would last you a while, you might consider a used pair of Rode NT5s. They also have omni capsules you can get, though I only have experience with the cardioid.

Also, I did a shoot-out on organ this summer with a whole slew of mics from Neumann, AKG, MXL, Schoeps, and AT, and one of the outstanding performers was the MXL 993 believe it or not. It had a very interesting/pleasing color in cardioid. A pair of these can be purchased in your budget. Not as transparent as some of the heavy hitters in classical, but I've gotten a lot of use out of mine.

Though I'd still go with the NT5s if you can find them in your budget. Just more flexible all-around - drums, guitar, etc.

So, getting back to your original question: having a stereo pair too close the choir probably isn't a good idea. For a large piece like this, you don't want to hear individual voices or too much detail. Put a stereo pair out in the house + stereo pair on the soloists + a pair on the organ (omni if possible) and I think you'll be set. If the director does their job decently, the chorus will blend themselves.

[Recording David]

Yep - what NorseHorse said.

[Rob K]

Huge thanks for your advice guys! I'm going to keep chewing things over but I have a much better idea of where I'm going now- Will just have to save up for a pair of those omnis in time for the 4th of April!

[Soundhunter]

Hi

Please PM Me, I live in Kingston and maybe we could get together on the night, I could do with the experience too. I have recorded the organ there in the past

Soundhunter
steve@musichunters.co.uk

[0VU]

Almost forgot - on the CD sessions I did, we had real problems with aircraft noise.

Depending upon wind conditions and flight plan scheduling, Kingston can be immediately under the flightpath for Heathrow. If you have landing traffic it's annoying but if you get take-offs, it's really not good. Later in the evening it gets quieter as flight frequency is legally restricted (our sessions started at 22:00hrs to get around the worst of the noise) but if you're unlucky, the first hour or so of the concert could have loud to very loud over-flight at anything up to 90 second intervals. Still not quite as bad as Eton College though. There, we were reduced to recording in 15-30 second chunks between take-offs. I can hardly wait for the third bloody runway!

The church has no sound proofing as such, and with a thin roof and windows, external noise can be awkward. Using lots of omnis doesn't help with the noise, especially if you're getting a lot of flight traffic. Thankfully, the organ blower is pretty quiet and doesn't add much to the problem.

Normally I'd tend towards omnis and/or subcardioids for a job like this but this is one venue where the potential for noise problems (which could start at any time and without notice) and a desire to avoid the organ sounding too 'one-sided' in the recorded image would probably lead me to think about using, or at least having the option of using, something else, maybe even fig-8s. A lot depends upon where they stand the choir and soloists.

On the other hand, you might well be lucky and have no over-flight problems at all, in which case it's just a matter of fiddling the stereo perspective a little and allowing for perhaps helping any balance problems caused by layouts and/or performance.

I fully take the point about preferring to buy rather than spending money on hiring - I'm exactly the same; if you can raise the cash in time, go for it. However, knowing the venue and the music you'll be recording (though obviously not the performers/specific performance), I still feel that with the three or four disparate mics you so far have available, you're setting yourself a bit of an uphill task, especially if this isn't something you're used to doing, and having available at least a pair of really decent mics would make your job a lot easier and the results (hopefully) better. e.g. you could hire a pair of switchable pattern condensers like Beyer MC740s for about £20/day. They would open up your options a lot and could even leave you enough cash to pick up the used pair of NTsomethings mentioned above.

Good luck, and if you think there's anything I can help with, feel free to PM.

[Rob K]

Thanks for your detailed reply 0VU - I may well be PM'ing you at some point! I hadn't really considered the plane noises (and I live in Kingston so I probably should have!)

Luckily I'll have full access to the rehearsal for at least a couple of hours, so I should hopefully be able to experiment with various placements to figure out the best setup. I think I'm fairly resolved to the fact that this isn't going to come out brilliantly, but hopefully it'll be something I can learn from and therefore end up much better prepared the second or third time round. Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say!

Soundhunter- I've emailed you.

[Rob K]

I'm pleased to say the recording went really well! I'll be posting a full update soon, along with some audio samples once I've finished the mixes. We didn't have any major problems with noise on the night - no noticeable planes or traffic, although there was a squeaky heater which required a bit of percussive engineering at a couple of points during the concert!

[Rob K]

Hi all,

If anyone is interested, I've posted the recordings, which are available at the following links. This is the full concert, so no need to listen to all of it! But I would welcome any feedback.

In particular I struggled a little to find a balance between the loud and quiet sections without over-compressing- In my opinion the loud sections feel a little bit out of control, particularly in the Britten.


01 - Britten

02 - Witlock

03 - Tippett Spirituals

04 - Howells Paean

05 - Howells Requiem


In the end the microphones used were:

SE1A (Stereo pair) - Choir

Schoeps CMC5 w/ MK25 omni capsule - Organ

Gefell UMT800 - Soloists L

Superlux CM8HA - Soloists R

(the soloists were arranged in two pairs, one pair on either side of the choir, so stereo image wasn't an issue, hence the two different mics on the soloists)

[Teddy Ray]

I would reccomend the Omni Capsules for the Rode nt 55,.They are quite good and very omni. Punch way above the weight and came reccomended to me by someone that is quite legendary in the classical recording realm. A giant, even.



edit...too late! darn.

anyway, maybe the advice will be useful later




DPA4003.Capsules

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

If you are looking for an extra pair of mics that would last you a while, you might consider a used pair of Rode NT5s. They also have omni capsules you can get, though I only have experience with the cardioid.

Also, I did a shoot-out on organ this summer with a whole slew of mics from Neumann, AKG, MXL, Schoeps, and AT, and one of the outstanding performers was the MXL 993 believe it or not. It had a very interesting/pleasing color in cardioid. A pair of these can be purchased in your budget. Not as transparent as some of the heavy hitters in classical, but I've gotten a lot of use out of mine.

Though I'd still go with the NT5s if you can find them in your budget. Just more flexible all-around - drums, guitar, etc.

So, getting back to your original question: having a stereo pair too close the choir probably isn't a good idea. For a large piece like this, you don't want to hear individual voices or too much detail. Put a stereo pair out in the house + stereo pair on the soloists + a pair on the organ (omni if possible) and I think you'll be set. If the director does their job decently, the chorus will blend themselves.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by Rob K

In particular I struggled a little to find a balance between the loud and quiet sections without over-compressing.

Thanks for the posting the samples. I can't wait to listen to them tonight. (At the moment in the AV Booth assisting a panel discussion.) Just wanted to touch base on volume control for now.

For classical concerts with a wide dynamic range, putting a compressor on the mix can have subpar results when extended passages (perhaps a whole movement) are over your threshold. I generally use envelope automation on the gain for overall volume control, saving compression to catch peaks on individual beats.

Some classical recordists NEVER adjust dynamics.