Zoom R16? Any experience or opinions?

[the_cottage]

Thanks studiodawag! That´s good to hear. Did you already make any recordings on the r16 in combination with the grace/avalon? How did it sound?

[Studiodawg]

Originally Posted by the_cottage

Did you already make any recordings on the r16 in combination with the grace/avalon? How did it sound?

I haven't made anything "critical", but I've been having a blast plugging in my Les Paul and recording little ditties with the amp models/presets! I got the R16 for song ideas along with my Edirol R9...I have a few other recording setups I use for location recordings or in my studio. The R16 has been good for my creative mojo.

[jasonbmerrill]

i am really interested in this device...

here is my communication with them so far about it:

Originally Posted by me

Hello. I am VERY interested in your r16 product. I have a few questions however.

Right now, I have 2 presonus firepods. It has phantom power for every channel, and I can record in 24/44.1 as an audio interface.

I want to sell one, to get some money for your product. However, in case my firepod that im using at the moment goes bad, I might want to replace it with the zoom, which I would be using as a backup and a field recorder.

Here are my questions:

You say there is phantom power only for 2 channels, correct? That is ok. I can deal with that.

However, I ONLY record in 24 bit. Whether out in the field, or as an audio interface. I don’t need to do 96 khz, but I MUST have 24/44.1 or 24/48 with 8 simultaneous recording channels.

Again, that’s if im recording out in the field (not attached to a computer) OR if I am using it as an audio interface. If it doesn’t do this, I cannot buy it.

Next, when is support for 64 bit systems planned? This is another MUST for me. I run windows Vista/7 x64. What limitations would I run into? Could I even transfer files from the zoom to my computer? Or use it as a control surface? Or is it totally dead on vista/7 x64? I know you don’t have support for it now, but if it is forthcoming and SOON then that might be an exception.

And what is this I hear about issues with latency? I realize its doing a lot, but if there is latency, I want to know what the issue is. Apparently its outlined here:

Zoom R16 - Ɉamѻn.name

I know I seem picky and demanding – but im careful with my money. This looks like an amazing product, even if it doesn’t fit me, you make some great stuff, thank you!

Jason

Originally Posted by them

Hi, thanks for your interest in the R16, let's see if I can answer your questions:

- The R16 only supports phantom power on channels 5 and 6 (if you look at a picture of the unit, there's a phantom switch pretty clearly visible.)
- 24 bit is supported in audio interface and standalone modes, however in standalone you must use a 44.1 sample rate. If I understand correctly, this shouldn't pose a problem for you.
- We don't have a clear idea of when, or indeed if, there will be 64bit driver support. Zoom corp in Japan writes all of the drivers, and although they've stated that they may make a 64bit compatible version, they haven't given any time frame for this yet. You can contact them directly at info@zoom.co.jp if you'd like to lend your voice to the cause. Since the R16 uses generic USB drivers for storage mode, that should work on a 64bit system.
- In our tests we haven't experienced the latency problems you're referring... however, I don't want to dispute the testing that was done on that website.
- No software that I'm aware of will let you use two ASIO devices from different manufacturers at a time. The firepod let's you stack two together, but since they both use the same driver it's a little bit different.

Hope this helps you make your decision.

Originally Posted by me in response

Hello, I found a forum post about some of these issues, sorry if I bothered you with it first J

Anyway, I was not planning on using 2 soundcards at the same time, I meant, can I use the zoom as a control surface (not as a soundcard) whilst using the firepod as an audio interface?

I am assuming the zoom installs a midi input/output driver for its control surface capabilities? (I realize the unit itself does not have midi in/out just wondering if that’s the protocol it uses for its control surface).

Thanks!

Jason

anyone here have any insight to the unsolved issues so far?

[jasonbmerrill]

looks like i wont be getting it now :(

Originally Posted by info@zoom.co.jp

Dear Jason Merrill,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Unfortunately, we are not planning to release x64 bit compatible audio driver at this time.
Anyway, I will forward your feedback to our R16 development team for future reference.

Sincerely yours,
ZOOM Corporation.

[mightysween]

The card capacity vs. recording length question was mentioned earlier, but I think it is worth making it a bit clearer...so here goes.

16bit/44.1KHz recording uses about 5MB per minute of audio. 24bit/44.1KHz uses about 8MB per minute. So, for some typical project setups (8 tracks & Stereo), here is how the various card capacities translate to recording time:

8 Tracks @ 24 bit/44.1Khz
1GB - 16 minutes
2GB - 32 minutes
4GB - 64 minutes
8GB - 128 minutes
16GB - 256 minutes
32GB - 512 minutes

Stereo @ 24bit/44.1Khz
1GB - 64 minutes
2GB - 128 minutes
4GB - 256 minutes
8GB - 512 minutes
16GB - 1024 minutes
32GB - 2048 minutes

8 Tracks @ 16 bit/44.1Khz
1GB - 25 minutes
2GB - 50 minutes
4GB - 100 minutes
8GB - 200 minutes
16GB - 400 minutes
32GB - 800 minutes

Stereo @ 16bit/44.1Khz
1GB - 102 minutes
2GB - 204 minutes
4GB - 408 minutes
8GB - 816 minutes
16GB - 1632 minutes
32GB - 3264 minutes

Obviously, using 48KHz or 96Khz decreases these times, but I'm from the school of thought that 99.999% of recording projects gain no benefit from higher sample rates anyhow.

[Shureman]

"Obviously, using 48KHz or 96Khz decreases these times, but I'm from the school of thought that 99.999% of recording projects gain no benefit from higher sample rates anyhow."

Amen!

[sixstringer]

"Obviously, using 48KHz or 96Khz decreases these times, but I'm from the school of thought that 99.999% of recording projects gain no benefit from higher sample rates anyhow."

I'll amen that too!

Fact is, when a CD is manufactured, to the 'Red Book' standard, the audio is parsed down to 44.1Khz/16 bit. You can record in 24bit for that "pristine" sound, but it's not going to translate to audio CDs.

It's like digital photography. My wife takes a shot which is saved as .psd (Photoshop). She converts it to .jpg for her web site. In that conversion pixels are stripped away from the original .psd to generate the .jpg; you loose the higher resolution of the original.

Likewise in audio. Record in the higher bit/Khz, but when it's converted for audio CD then "pixels" are stripped away.

Maybe the higher bit/Khz works for digital; however, that wouldn't be true for MP3's.

sixstringer

[Shureman]

Fact is, when a CD is manufactured, to the 'Red Book' standard, the audio is parsed down to 44.1Khz/16 bit. You can record in 24bit for that "pristine" sound, but it's not going to translate to audio CDs.

This maybe worthy of a whole nother thread.
Problem is, the big time distributors are now so adamant about recording at industry standard (96/24), even if you make an absolutely brilliant recording in 44/16, good enough artistically and sonically for widespread distribution, your local digital masterer will likely return it to you with a polite note saying sorry, he won't do it -substandard stuff that would reflect badly on his reputation. I've had this happen to me recently.

Concerns about bit truncation and other technical shortcomings outweigh the actual sound the recording produces. I take it personally when a digital masterer judges the qualty of a recording based on what he sees on the computer screen, and not on what he hears on his speakers; but I'm afraid that's what will be happening more and more.
,
I can't help but wonder if I take a nice, edited 44/16 recording, play it through my best d/a converter, re-record the line output in 96/24, add tracks and turn that into the digital masterer, and told him that it's the original recording format, would he then take the time to actually listen to it.
Would he fall for it? Devious, eh?


More reason to just put it out there on the internet.

[Corran]

Regardless of the debate over 44/48/88/96, surely no one can say they prefer recording in 16-bit over 24??

[sixstringer]

Actually, Corran, I do like recording in 16 bit. Guess I'm old-school, or just "old". (I'm 52)

I think for me part of it is the challenge of making something sound excellent on less-than-industry-standard equipment. I can record in 24 bit because my gear will do so, but I choose 16. Besides, what's the point of recording 24 bit when that's not what you're going to get with a finished CD?

For me it's also that the issue just gets too technical for music's sake. Great recordings have been done on less-than-great gear many times. No one seems to complain. Remember, a lot has to do with mixing and mastering.

Anyway, if I should purchase a Zoom R16 I will use the 16 bit mode.

sixstringer

[Corran]

Suit yourself. 24-bit lowers the noise floor by having more dynamic range. Concerning the perceived differences in sampling rates (44, 96, etc), there is still some room for debate. But to each his own, of course.

Besides for me, my recorder (HD24XR) doesn't do 16 anyway!

[spiral]

I have been watching this thread with interest. I currently own a Yamaha AW1600, which sounds ok but the workflow is really kludgey (at least not as nice as the Korg machines).

The R16 seems nice but i am wondering what the reverb sounds like, and how the DAC's sound. Can anyone who is using another HD recorder like a Korg or Yamaha comment on the sound quality of the input audio and reverb? Difference? Same? Not enough to matter?

[Studiodawg]

$400 with 8 A/D converters...it's decent. It's not a Lynx converter, but they do what they need to do. Just don't forget the price vs. bells & whistles ratio which is rich. As for the reverb, I haven't delved too deep on that end because I'll be mixing down in a DAW.

[Shureman]

Originally Posted by Corran

Suit yourself. 24-bit lowers the noise floor by having more dynamic range. Concerning the perceived differences in sampling rates (44, 96, etc), there is still some room for debate. But to each his own, of course.

Besides for me, my recorder (HD24XR) doesn't do 16 anyway!

For me there is an stunning difference between an old DAT recording and a 44/16 recording made from the same source signal. The DAT recording (at 48/20) is cleaner, and spacier. Unmistakeable. I'm afraid my playback equipment is not good enough to distinguish beyond that however. I have to take it on faith that even higher definition recordings are perceivably better with highest end playback capabilities. But what is the point. For my purposes, for my market, a 44/16 recording serves me oh so well. With so few people listening to super high end equipment, I have plenty of practical reasons to use 44/16. Ultimately, I end up with cleaner and spacier recordings on a consitent basis. I suppose if I had unlimited resources and time, I would opt for higher resolutions. Because there are so few people who actually have the ears and the equipment to appreciate high def recordings, I must agree with sixstringer, a lot of great music would be lost in the persuit of perfection. Still, I am grateful for the people with the motivation to get the absolute best possible. They are after all the ones who made 44/16 recording a reality, and have moved on. For those in the upper eshelons of recording, why not go for the absolute best, but for those of us who aren't (weekend warriors), getting a "wow! that sounds fantastic" from a client makes me happy.

I'll be using my r16 in 44/16. But please don't tell anyone.

[Corran]

Not to stray too far off-topic, have you tried recording in both bitrates and then comparing both the native 16-bit one and the 24-bit one, dithered down to 16?

I had a 44/16 only recorder for two years and I kept telling myself "it's CD quality so why bother with more?" but when I tried 44/24 on a new recorder (but with similar preamp quality) I heard an immediate difference (like you mentioned with the DAT) but I feel it is present still in a dithered version, unless the dither is bad.

[esiegel]

Hello, all. Apologies for any cross postings...

Glad to find this group, hoping that there are some ideas here, or at least I can vent and share my experience with others considering the r16.

I have two macbooks, one an aluminum macbook pro 15', one a unibody macbook 13'. Both dual core Intel's both OS 10.5.6.

On the pro I have Logic 8 studio installed and running nicely
On the macbook 13" I have Live 8 installed and running nicely, along with audacity.

I got the r16 yesterday, and had the day off today, so I figured I would get it up and running and see what was what. I am mostly interested in it as an audio interface/control surface, though the effects and standalone mixing are a very nice plus.

The standalone mixing part is fine, works no problem.

The USB interface/control surface part is a mess. I suspect that the drivers (v1.0) are to blame, but I have never had this much difficulty using any other interface etc.

I have tried two different ways of using USB in all of these approaches. The first is bus powered, with no mains, and the second mains powered. The results were essentially the same.

So, I first installed the driver on the Macbook Pro, which is my studio computer (the macbook 13 is more of a work computer). I fired up logic, and set the audio in and out using the preferences menu. No joy, no audio, no nuttin. So I tried going in through Audio/Midi setup in OS X Utilities. Still nothing.

I did have some indication that at least the midi was going through in and out (there were controller numbers and values changing when I moved the sliders). So I followed the instructions to set up the Mackie Control, and nothing. No slider moves, and even the midi indicator stopped showing data in, just a little burp of controller data out every .5 seconds or so.

After a while, rebooting Logic during these various changes, it started to crash and the report showed that it was crashing when loading the r16 driver.

So, then I went over to the Macbook 13, and tried the same sequence in Live 8.0. Nothing, no midi, no audio, no controller data, no fader moves.

SOOOO, then I installed Cubase LE 4 on the 13", and still nothing. No audio in, no midi, no controller data.

I think I have run out of ideas. I haven't had this much frustration with an audio device since I last used a PC several years ago.

It seems to me that the drivers aren't cooked yet.

Any other ideas before this baby gets boxed up and returned?

Thanks in advance

Eric

[Henky]

Hi Eric,

Did you use the included USB cable and/or tried another one?

[Speeddemon]

Originally Posted by spiral

I have been watching this thread with interest. I currently own a Yamaha AW1600, which sounds ok but the workflow is really kludgey (at least not as nice as the Korg machines).

I totally hear ya!
I owned a Korg D16 for several years and it was a breeze to use. And aside from some lack of I/O (a 2nd aux send would be nice, SCSI sucks), it had everything you needed. Sure, no channel dynamics, but you can use the 8 insert effects (for instance compressors or limiters) during recording AND during mixing you can apply them again, but in a non-destructive way.

I sold it to get a Yamaha AW2400, which is certainly a more 'pro' machine, but boy, is it hard to use. Assigning/arming the tracks, scrolling through 5 fader-layers, etc...I got a Boss BR600 after that, for my home-noodling, since the Yamaha wasn't really plug-and-play. But the BR600 had its limitations too, and the ridiculously small screen (which the Zoom recorders also suffer from) bugged me. Also the lack of pan-pots per channel (which I also don't like from the AW-series AND the Zoom R16) bugged me.
So, I sold the BR600 and bought a (used) Korg D1200!
Now I got decent screen-estate, 12 channels, pan-pots per channel, 4-track simul. recording, the lovely Korg work-flow and options and all that for a mere $40 more than I sold the BR600 for.

If Korg would re-release the D16, in the same small enclosure, but with 4 XLR-ins (with switchable phantompower), 2 aux sends, a 40 or 80Gb HDD, USB 2.0, the touchscreen, rotary pots per channel with the interface of the Zoom HD8/HD16 (so you have 1 button that assigns the pots to EQ hi, mid, low, pan, FX send 1, FX send 2...) you'd have a portable recording dream! But it will probably be a battle between marketing guys (lower the price!) and tech guys (make it better!)

[mightysween]

Originally Posted by Corran

Regardless of the debate over 44/48/88/96, surely no one can say they prefer recording in 16-bit over 24??

Boy, I opened a can of worms with this one!

I don't think there is really anything to debate about 44 vs. 96. There are simply very few recording applications that will benefit from sampling at 96, especially when 99% of the world will listen at 44.1K (and effectively less thanks to mp3).

If you have to resample/dither to get it to your audience, then you're probably just wasting disk space.

Of course 24 bit has greater headroom (dynamic range), but only an engineer who knows how to use that dynamic range properly is going to benefit from it. Simply flipping the switch from 16 to 24 does absolutely nothing to affect a project's "sound" on its own.

Conversely, most of the time a good engineer can produce a great recording in the 96db of dynamic range that 16 bit provides. Most modern/popular music styles are not dynamic enough to warrant a 144db range! And in the end, it is all going to get squashed to death into 3db to get that "commercial" sound anyway. And then it will be compressed and destroyed by MP3 software.

[Corran]

I record classical music. It's a whole different ballgame! The dynamic range is important, and, it's helpful to have the extra headroom to prevent overs on that single chance to get the take (concert!).

Anyway, back to the r16 I suppose.

[LAAND]

As an active musician I found it very useful to record our practice session, thinking though to connect the zoom r 16 between the sourse of sound and mixer board , but there is only a stereo out ! is that going to be hard to control?

[Henky]

Originally Posted by LAAND

As an active musician I found it very useful to record our practice session, thinking though to connect the zoom r 16 between the sourse of sound and mixer board , but there is only a stereo out ! is that going to be hard to control?

What kind of mixer board are we talking about?
As it might be better to tap it of from the seperate channels of the board then to feed it through the r16.
When you only have the stereo return signal from the R16, it will be very hard to mix anything at all on the mixer board.

[taffy123]

Hi Guys just a question .

I bought the Zoom r16 three weeks ago and up till now have beren very happy with it.

last week decidecd to start using Presonus studio one as DAW and the zoom as interface and controller.

what i have come across is that within studio one the DAW controller funtion seems to be quite buggy .and does not seem to react as real controller an example would be ,when faders are on zero on the R16 i am still able to here audio when pressing play in the DAW and seem to have little control over sound. really strange.

does anyone else have this problem or maybe know a solution.


question 2: this is al kinda new to me but i have no idea how to use the reverb in the send return effects ,as the book is not very clear on this.

can i use effects from send return effects and insert effect at the same time on the same channel.

can i use effects from insert effects on more channels at once say distortion on channel one and bass on channel two.

does anyone know where i could get this info from


thanx all .

[Jamon]

You can use reverb, chorus/delay sends on the same channel as an insert effect. But you only get 1 insert.

For sends, hit Pan / EQ, hold down, and raise the send level for reverb or delay. Then hit the send return effect button and choose your effect #1, and #2 options. Turn the wheel to scroll through presets, and left/right to move between slots.

The R16 doesn't have motorized faders. Just because the fader is on 0 doesn't mean the level is on 0. You have to move it slightly for it to jump to the correct value. For instance, if your fader is down, and you change banks.

[taffy123]

thanx a million now i seem to have gotten it to work,must say not the best reverb i have ever heard or used ,but it will surfice.

thanx jae

[esiegel]

I posted about my inability to use the USB functions of the r16, and wrote to Zoom about this. They have responded:
====================
I'm truly sorry for the trouble you have gone through.

We have confirmed the USB functions of the R16 doesn't work properly with Mac OS X v10.5.7 / 10.5.8 / 10.6.1.
Now, our development team is trying to find the cause of the problem. As soon as we find a solution, I will notify you by email.

Sincerely yours,
ZOOM Corporation.

================

This is with v 1.0 drivers. I have returned the machine, and will wait to hear from them about their update to the drivers.

So, any of you with os x who are thinking of using the R16 for a usb interface/controller, my suggestion would be two-fold:

1) Wait until the drivers available are updated (look on the zoom.co.jp website, not the samson site)
2) Buy it from someplace with no restocking charge, ideally a local bricks and mortar so it can be readily returned if it doesn't work as it should.

Eric

[Studiodawg]

Does anybody know how to turn off the metronome light so that it doesn't flash while recording?

[Jamon]

To turn off the metronome light, cut a tiny piece of black electrical tape and place it over the light, or open it up and disconnect it.

You can slow it down in software though. Set the tempo to the lowest, and pattern to 0/4.

[Studiodawg]

In other words, it can not be defeated. I recorded my gig live on Saturday using a Rode NT4 and the internal mics. FWIW, there is nothing "thin" about the sound. ...I suspect the A/D converters are newer technology.

[cyjanopan]

can you post some sample? I`ll have R16 in next week but dying from curiosity how good/bad it is