Zoom R16? Any experience or opinions?

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by cosmicsync

That way, the levels that I set to monitor track 1 will be the same on track 9 and so on.

I do recall reading somewhere in the book that teh R16 remembers what level the fader was when the focus was lost from that bank. (.ie the levels of track 1 & 9 can be different)

[wolfchimneyrock]

Hi. First post. I am thinking of getting an R16. I currently have a 16 channel mixer and outboard compressor and reverb and some preamps ... I notice that the R16 has no inserts or groups or aux sends... just routing to builtin effects... So would I need to get some kind of patchbay to use it most effectively?

Thanks

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by Siamize

I do recall reading somewhere in the book that teh R16 remembers what level the fader was when the focus was lost from that bank. (.ie the levels of track 1 & 9 can be different)

It does, it's just a bit of a pain tweaking 1 & 9 (for example) if they are at very different levels, since when you change from one bank to the other your faders will be far from the actual value.

But you can also select PAN/EQ, and scroll down to FADER to see the numeric value that track's fader is at. So if you change it by mistake you can use the jog wheel to get it back to where it was. You can also use the right & left arrow buttons and the bank buttons to switch between tracks while you're making fader adjustments.

If you're fine tuning a mix, it can be easier to ignore the faders all together and just do it in the menu.

I'm still learning this gadget and trying different work flows. Really, with a roll of masking tape and a sharpie you can put your tracks anywhere.

[mrmuse]

Hey does anyone know if we can post photos here?

I have a couple of the small 10 foot snake running with the R16. They are color coded. I also have some photos of using metal "shielding" tape to mark channels/tracks, as it leaves no residue at all.

Maybe some photos from members showing their setups would help some of us others out.

Just a thought..

mrmuse

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by mrmuse

Hey does anyone know if we can post photos here?

It looks like it:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/faq.p...l&titlesonly=0

Sounds a lot like Facebook.

Originally Posted by mrmuse

Maybe some photos from members showing their setups would help some of us others out.

Just a thought..

mrmuse

I think it's a great idea. I'd love to hear more uploads, too. And read whatever technical details people care to share.

[mrmuse]

Hey Cosmicsync,

Thanks for reminding me that "when all else fails, read the instructions".

I just think it would be cool if everyone could learn a little from everyones trials and errors. Photos say much more to me.

I too, want to "hear" what everyone else is doing. I'm mixing down some tracks today and will post the end result later.

thanks

mrmuse

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by mrmuse

I too, want to "hear" what everyone else is doing. I'm mixing down some tracks today and will post the end result later.

I'd love to hear it.

I'm taking the rest of the week off, with the intention of getting a lot of recording & mixing done. So far I've just been playing around with the R16, trying to learn its quirks.

I'm close to completing a project with two guitar parts, a bass part played on my guitar with the bass sim effect, drums from Hydrogen split in to separate tracks for kick, snare, hh and a stereo mix of the whole kit, and four vocal tracks.

Other than the drums, I'm trying to do everything in the R16. The biggest obstacle so far is my own playing/singing abilities, which are somewhat lacking, but I wanted to put the R16 through its paces recording, mixing, eq'ing & mastering.

Once I get a bit more comfortable with the unit I'm going to look for opportunities to record other musicians.

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by stof7

- but I don't see anywhere the ability to cut / copy & past a part from a track to the same track (like a repeat function) or to a different track,

- and it also seems that once you record a file on a track, you can't go on further and record on the same track, as far as I understand this particular point, you would have to finish a song (meaning the composing process is fully done) to start recording ?

These points are important to me because I usually compose & record on a step by step basis : In a few words, it's not "live recording".

These 2 points seems the only drawbacks for my personal use, other than that it seems really good at what it does & would allow me to not use the computer any more for this stages : composing & recording, only for mixing if necessary.

Cut/paste ... I think your right I can't seem to find it anywhere & if it was there it's obviously not really easy to get to (ie. down in some menu somewhere).

Recording at the end of a track ... yea you can. Just go to the end of the track. Press "Rec" to prepare for recording & then "Play" to activate the recording.

Step by step recording ... if you only plan on recording 1 track at a time I'd just do it straight to your PC/laptop. It's much easier to edit stuff on the computer screen with a mouse then press buttons through "hidden" menus. Why wouldn't you want to use a computer anyway? Based on what you have said you would be using for I probably wouldn't recommend it. It is design to record multiple track simultaniously & that is what it does best. Everything else is kinda extra which in my opinion is easier to to do on a computer (including mixing).

On a separate note & I should be recording another one or two half hr sessions this weekend - 6 to 8 tracks each so I can't wait for that so I can mix that down.

I can't remember who posted that file "tryptophan-jhu-092009.mp3" 64MB but at the 25min mark there is just a really interesting song to say the least. I'm still trying to comprehend how that guy can sing that fast?

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by wolfchimneyrock

Hi. First post. I am thinking of getting an R16. I currently have a 16 channel mixer and outboard compressor and reverb and some preamps ... I notice that the R16 has no inserts or groups or aux sends... just routing to builtin effects... So would I need to get some kind of patchbay to use it most effectively?

Thanks

Yea that's what you'd need. I recon that a feature that the R16 could really do with is an "output" on each of the channels which is just a "copy"/"clone" on the "input" (basically a "through" or a DI). That way you could just connect up all you mics/instruments to the R16 & then from the R16 to you mixer & then to the front of house. Not sure where you'd put the extra plugs though as the back of the R16's basically full up with plugs.

I've made up my own unpowered spliter box to handle 8 channels. That way it just splits the signal coming from the instrument to the mixer & to the R16. You lose a little bit of signal but that's what the gain knobs for (pro-recorders would probably cring at the thought but it works).

[mrmuse]

Originally Posted by wolfchimneyrock

Hi. First post. I am thinking of getting an R16. I currently have a 16 channel mixer and outboard compressor and reverb and some preamps ... I notice that the R16 has no inserts or groups or aux sends... just routing to builtin effects... So would I need to get some kind of patchbay to use it most effectively?

Thanks

Just a thought here, wolfchimneyrock....You didn't say which 16 channel board you have...That would help with my answer, but here's what applies to me.

I have a 20 Channel Soundcraft 12 xlr with PP, and 4 stereo channels. What I've done for live recording is use my normal rig, but utilize the Direct Outs on each channel to record to the R16.

Now my board is quite generous, 4 group outs, (4-track) 2 track recording out, and what I've used most is the 8 aux outs, one to each channel of the R16. You have complete control over 1-4, with 5+6, 7+8 linked as stereo. Used in combo with the channel inserts, it gives me great control.

I also have a rackmount 8 ch. line mixer that works well, and a small Behringer mixer with EFX and 2 channels of phantom power that I've used to submix the drum kit, although most of the drum tracks have gone through a Roland Electronic kit which has more than enough outputs and routing.

If this doesn't help, post the model of your mixer and we'll see if we can help.

mrmuse

[misscc803]

I own two R-16's I love them. They are awesome but the only complaint is how they where built. They are plastic so you have to be extremely careful with them. Also I recommend you invest in bigger SD cards cause I just did a reality show using them and the cards where filling up so quickly. Also could be bc I was recording 8 channels at once as well. But definitely a great board to check out.

Nicole

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by misscc803

I own two R-16's I love them. They are awesome but the only complaint is how they where built. They are plastic so you have to be extremely careful with them. Also I recommend you invest in bigger SD cards cause I just did a reality show using them and the cards where filling up so quickly. Also could be bc I was recording 8 channels at once as well. But definitely a great board to check out.

Nicole

Yea definately invest in a larger card. With 8 tracks it uses about 2Gig per half hr at 24bit. I personally have an 8 Gb which I find enough.

To those who wanted to hear what's been being recorded. Here's another. No great amounts of editing. Just copied to the laptop from the card & using Audacity to trim the song out of the 20min recording. Didn't even touch the EQ or add any effects. Just panned appropriately & changed some leveled as I wasn't overly checking them during recording as I was doing the live mix. Taken down on 8 tracks (Lead vocals, Backing vocals, guitar, cymbols & toms, snare, kick, bass guitar & piano).

Let me all know what you think. (About 4 mins / 3.6MB)

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...ghYourName.mp3


Here's one I previously posted too for those who missed it.

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...sed-Mixed3.mp3

[stof7]

Originally Posted by Siamize

Cut/paste ... I think your right I can't seem to find it anywhere & if it was there it's obviously not really easy to get to (ie. down in some menu somewhere).

Recording at the end of a track ... yea you can. Just go to the end of the track. Press "Rec" to prepare for recording & then "Play" to activate the recording.

Step by step recording ... if you only plan on recording 1 track at a time I'd just do it straight to your PC/laptop. It's much easier to edit stuff on the computer screen with a mouse then press buttons through "hidden" menus. Why wouldn't you want to use a computer anyway? Based on what you have said you would be using for I probably wouldn't recommend it. It is design to record multiple track simultaniously & that is what it does best. Everything else is kinda extra which in my opinion is easier to to do on a computer (including mixing).

On a separate note & I should be recording another one or two half hr sessions this weekend - 6 to 8 tracks each so I can't wait for that so I can mix that down.

I can't remember who posted that file "tryptophan-jhu-092009.mp3" 64MB but at the 25min mark there is just a really interesting song to say the least. I'm still trying to comprehend how that guy can sing that fast?

ah thanx for your answer Siamize,

it's good to read that one can record at the end of a track, otherwise it would have been a non sense, but I had to ask because to me, the manual is not clear about it.

About the computer, yes I know what you mean, I've been working for years that way with cubase, but now I only want to use the computer for mixing purposes, once the songs are done (or at least most of it is done) & maybe add some sound instruments that I can't play in real, like VST instruments.

Nowadays, the less I use the computer, the better it is for my health & my eyes. Music is a passion for me, though I'm no professionnal & have to do a job to pay the bill (though I'm in front of a computer screen everyday I work).

To sumup, I want to use the R16 only for recording (yes usually one track at a time, but who knows it could changes in the future) & I don't won't to use a computer for that, I still think the R16, for its price is good choice, especially when I think of the past with its 4tracks on tape which cost about 600/700 euros (ok that was really long time ago).

Regards,
stof7

[matt0407]

this is probably a stupid question, but will the sound quality of the R16 come anywhere near that of a steinberg MR816? I'm trying to figure out where I can save a little on my studio

[baoshu]

hi, pete. I had the same issue, exact same error message when loading it in sonar8 producer edition.
I also couldn't get it working with adobe audition 3.0. both are on windows vista. have you found more information about it?

thank you,
-baoshu

Originally Posted by cgsnd

My R16 showed up yesterday AND I LOVE IT !...only problem I'm haing is Sonar 8 doesn't play NICE with it ! . I loaded th edrivers that came with it, S8 See's it, when you try to access it as am input source I get a message that says, " The Following drivers either do not supoprt the current audio format or are in use by another application". Well nothing else is running so I doubt anything else is using the drivers. I tried changing S8 to ASIO instead of WDM. No good, it doen's even see the R16. I've tried setting S8 to 32mme, Still no good. Could it be the R18 drivers don't support
Sonar 8 ? anybody have any suggestions ?

thanks !

pete

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by stof7

ah thanx for your answer Siamize,

it's good to read that one can record at the end of a track, otherwise it would have been a non sense, but I had to ask because to me, the manual is not clear about it.

stof7

Yea a little hint is that when you get to the end of your recording and press the "STOP". Then press the MARK/CLEAR button to put a mark there. This way when you press the ">>|" button the R16 will go to the end of the recording or else you will have to use the ">>" button and manually stop it at the end of the recording which naturally won't exactly stop at the exact end but rather play through with silence as such (until you press "STOP").

I suppose it is setup that way because you could inevitably be playing several tracks that end as such at different times and be recording to one that may continue for some time.


Also as a generally hint for everyone: The pan/eq/reverb/chorus effects add with the "EQ/PAN" button don't actually record to the wav file ... they are just applied to the play back of that track.

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by Siamize

Also as a generally hint for everyone: The pan/eq/reverb/chorus effects add with the "EQ/PAN" button don't actually record to the wav file ... they are just applied to the play back of that track.

They do get included when you bounce your tracks to another track(s) or the master track though. The nice thing about the send/return effects is you can add different amounts of chorus and reverb to each track in the track settings of the Pan/EQ menu.

It took me a helluva long time to figure out that - in addition to turning the effect on in the Send Return Effect menu - you also have to dial it up in the track settings (Pan/EQ) menu as well. Even after I noticed the setting just poking around in the menus, I would still sit there the next day wondering why I wasn't hearing any reverb after enabling it in the Send Return Effect menu.

[misscc803]

Originally Posted by Siamize

Yea definately invest in a larger card. With 8 tracks it uses about 2Gig per half hr at 24bit. I personally have an 8 Gb which I find enough.

Yeah the biggest size I had was a 4gb card and I'm buying 32 gig cards now. I love the machine. Do you do any tv/film work using yours?

Nicole

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by misscc803

Yeah the biggest size I had was a 4gb card and I'm buying 32 gig cards now. I love the machine. Do you do any tv/film work using yours?

Nicole

Yea I love mine too. I don't really do any tv/film stuff now but I have done in the past ... too much to do with so little time (especially with 3 little ones under 5).

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by Siamize

To those who wanted to hear what's been being recorded. Here's another ... Let me all know what you think.

Nice job, Siamize. I enjoyed the one you posted earlier, as well. I would love to know more about how you recorded this (I'm new to the R16, and hope to do some live recording soon myself). Any tips you can give on equipment and technique would be most welcome.

The only criticism I would make is that I found the cymbals fighting the vocals in a few spots, especially early on. Later, as the song builds to the climax the vocals are much clearer and up-front. My low-end Altec Lansing laptop speakers could have a lot to do with it, though.

Originally Posted by Siamize

Just copied to the laptop from the card & using Audacity to trim the song out of the 20min recording.

I've been using Audacity for a few years too, and think it's a great tool, especially for people like me who just want to noodle around, record backing tracks to jam to and improve the audio in their video productions.

It's quite an adjustment working in the R16, but I've resisted the temptation to open the file up in Audacity for mixing/eq'ing etc. I've struggled at times, but I think it's paid off as I'm quite comfortable now with bouncing tracks, punching in and out, applying effects and eq'ing with the Zoom.

As I've said elsewhere, the biggest obstacle is my limited skills as a musician, which is why I'm looking for opportunities to record other performers.

Thanks again for sharing your work.

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by cosmicsync

... I would love to know more about how you recorded this

...Any tips you can give on equipment and technique would be most welcome.

... I found the cymbals fighting the vocals in a few spots,

...My low-end Altec Lansing laptop speakers could have a lot to do with it, though.

... using Audacity for a few years too, and think it's a great tool,

... resisted the temptation to open the file up in Audacity for mixing/eq'ing etc.

... punching in and out, applying effects and eq'ing with the Zoom.

... the biggest obstacle is my limited skills as a musician, which is why I'm looking for opportunities to record other performers.

....Thanks again for sharing your work.

Thanks very much for your reply.

About the recording ... as I've said previously I've made up some splitter boxes (well that's what I call them) so that I can take the inputs coming from the instruments/mics and feed one output of the box into the R16 & the other into the 16 channel digital mixer for the live mix. With the last recording this was done for one vocalist, bass, piano, snare & kick. With the other two vocalist they were run through the mixer and bussed together on another track. The toms & cymbols were also bussed together on another track. And the guitar was also bussed by itself to another track. After the recording I split the cymbols & the toms track with a 1kHz high pass / low pass (high pass for the cymbols & low for the toms). There's a bit of cross talk as such it gives you enough control on their fundamental frequencies. Then just leveled the R16 faders to about the -5 or -10 level (can't remember exactly), increased the gain knobs until the clipping light started clipping and then turned it back so that it would clip during the recording. Hit the Rec Play button & then check every so often that the tracks weren't clipping on the R16 while I actually did the live mix.

About the cymbols ... I would probably agree too. As I said I didn't EQ any tracks after coping them to the laptop. Yesterday after listening to the previous recording I realised how much difference and clarity EQing had made.

Speakers ... no they really wouldn't. The live mix was done at about a SPL of 90dB (A).

Audacity ... I love Audacity mostly because of is standard Spectrumal EQ plugin & the Frequency analysis. Our live mixer has a 4 band parametric EQ for each input & output which has a visual on the screen so I love seeing how the EQing is affecting the frequency spectrum of the sound. After using Audacity & our live mixer, I really can't justify spending the time mucking around doing that stuff on the R16. I also use "Visual Analyser 8" (freeware real-time frequency anaysis program) too to help when EQing track. After a while your ears adjust to the sound so it's useful as an external check. Just as a general question to everyone else out there as well, "What program/s do you use to edit recordings on the computer?".

Punching in & out ... I don't really do that yet as I generally just use it for live recordings. Having said that I might use it in the future.

Limited musician skills ... I'd have to say that I'm the opposite. Everyone else says that I'm quite talented (been playing the piano since I was 5 & bass and guitar since I was about 15). I'd like to one day record myself in the band but we'll get there one day.

Looking for opportunities to record other performers ... did you (or anyone else for that matter) want me to upload the individual track from the last recording so you can have a go at mixing & mastering them yourself. As the Audacity folder is 145MB, I'd probably just export each track into a MP3 (Probably about 40MB all up) & upload them unless you wanted the Audacity folder. Just let me know.

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by cosmicsync

... in addition to turning the effect on in the Send Return Effect menu - you also have to dial it up in the track settings (Pan/EQ) menu as well.

Did you have to do that first step of turning the effect on in the Send Return Effect menu? I didn't go into that menu. I only went into the "Pan/EQ" menu?

I tend to find those effects menus quite difficult to navigate & know what exactly they are doing. I think that if I spent some time in there though that I would get to know how to navigae them. I guess it all depends on what you want the R16 to do for you.

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by Siamize

Did you have to do that first step of turning the effect on in the Send Return Effect menu? I didn't go into that menu. I only went into the "Pan/EQ" menu?

Yes. You go in to the Send Return Effect menu, and you'll either see Send Reverb or Send Chorus/Delay. The left & right arrow keys toggle between them.

Beneath that you'll either see Off, or if the effect is on you'll see the name of the patch that is currently selected. If it's off, use the Enter button to toggle it on. Once it's on, use the dial (jog wheel?) to select which patch you want to use for that effect. Patches are just presets, which you can edit. You can also save your custom patches to the empty slots in the patch list.

But once you've turned a patch on you need to hit Pan/EQ, select the track you want to add the effect to with the left and right arrow keys, then down arrow to either Reverb Send or Chorus Send and use the dial to add the amount of chorus or reverb you want on that track.

Set the first track, then use the right or left arrow button to go to any other track you want to add reverb or chorus to and set the amount for that track the same way.

It's great once you get the hang of it, but it's just slightly not intuitive, even after reading the manual.

Another one that kept tripping me up was bouncing. You first go in to Project -> Rec Settings -> Bounce and select whether or not you want to mute the track you are bouncing to, then exit out of that, hit the Swap/Bounce button, select Bounce, but then you have to hit Enter and use the dial to select On. Then you exit out and are ready to bounce.

When you've done it right the "Bounce" indicator will be lit on the display, but I kept missing the last step and wondering why the tracks I bounced to were silent.

Do'h!

Jamon talked about the inconsistent interface in his excellent review of the R16, and I still find myself reaching for the manual to refresh myself on how to do some things. At the same time I understand it's tough to create a powerful but intuitive interface with a two-line display.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded OT answer, but yes you have to go in to both menus to use the Send/Return effects.

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by Siamize

About the recording ...

Hey Siamize.

Thanks very much for the effort you put in to your answer. This is exactly the type of post that makes this forum a great resource for people like me who are just starting out with serious recording. I found the part about using high and low pass filters to split up the toms and cymbals very informative. I will also look in to Visual Analyser 8.

I've found the Auto punch in/out feature very handy, especially for fixing minor mistakes to an otherwise good take. I've found it tougher to get a seamless punch in with vocals and acoustic guitar than electric, since mic position and attack need to match very closely. Again, I just need practice to get better (or find better musicians to record).

I would love to take you up on your generous offer to use the individual tracks you recorded to practice mixing, eq'ing etc. Either wav or mp3 would be fine. I'm looking for any opportunity to put some of the theory I'm learning to practice, and the stuff I've been able to produce myself is pretty basic.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by cosmicsync

I would love to take you up on your generous offer to use the individual tracks you recorded to practice mixing, eq'ing etc.

No prob ... I'll see if I can get them up in the next 12-24hrs. I'll actually upload them as the audacity folder in two zip files. Each about 70MB. Save me spliting them into individual track files & then you recombining them back again.

I'm looking forward to hearing it.

Also you might be interested in this page of stuff that I've pick up over the last 6 months or so.
Mixing Hints

Thanks for the info on the effects. I'll have to see what I did to get the reverb cuz I definately didn't (well I definately don't "remember") going into the send/return menu.

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by cosmicsync

...I've found it tougher to get a seamless punch in with vocals and acoustic guitar than electric.

I'm looking for any opportunity to put some of the theory I'm learning to practice, and the stuff I've been able to produce myself is pretty basic.

Yea that's what I would have imagined that getting a seamless punch in would be pretty darn difficult. I would imagine that just making a separate track and fading from the original one, to the new, and back to the original would be much easier.

Well ... I've uploaded the files so you can put all the theory you've learnt to practice.

I've actually upload them as the audacity folder in two zip files. Each about 70MB. Save me splitting them into individual track files & then you recombining them back again.
http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...%20Export1.zip
and
http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...%20Export2.zip
Unzip the first one (...Export1.zip)... and then unzip the second one (...Export2.zip) into the directory that is in the first one. If their's any problems opening them let me know.

If anyone else would like to have a take at mixing them too feel free. I'd be interested to hear all the various mixes we could make of it.

[cosmicsync]

Originally Posted by Siamize

Well ... I've uploaded the files so you can put all the theory you've learnt to practice.

Thanks again, Siamize. I wish my schedule wasn't so busy the next couple of days, but I'll definitely make this my weekend project, and upload the results.

[Siamize]

I found out how to easily export the individual tracks so here they are ... about 3.6MB each (32MB total)

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...kingVocals.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...racks/Bass.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...ks/Cymbols.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...cks/Guitar.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...racks/Kick.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound.../LeadVocal.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...acks/Piano.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...acks/Snare.mp3

http://siamize.vpscustomer.com/Sound...racks/Toms.mp3

[BigSkyBluesBand]

I have a 8 direct out from my mixer into an optical that hooks into my DAW. Never had a problem plugging in or out with these cables. I just bought a Zoom R16 and I planned on doing the same setup, but using the R16 instead of my DAW, to lessen the noise for acoustic stuff. Everything plugged in fine and I tracked to all eight inputs of the R16.

Next morning I was going to unhook all eight cables from the R16 and some of them just would not come out by pulling on them by hand. So I grabbed the pliers and tried, I thought because it was new the jacks were not broken in and just tight. I got all of them out but one pretty easy. The last one took a hell of a lot of effort but it finally came out. Then I looked at the cable and the tip was gone. It was still inside of the jack in the R16. I had to disassemble the R16 to extract the cable tip, but I successfully did and everything seems to work fine.

Has anyone else had this problem??

[Siamize]

Originally Posted by BigSkyBluesBand

Has anyone else had this problem?? ... with getting plugs out

I must admit I haven't plugged and unplugged a whole lot ... maybe 3 or 4 times with the 1/4 plugs and yea everytime unplugging they do seem pretty tough. Definately would fall out. You have to give them a decent pull. Not sure if its to do with being a XLR/0.25' combo socket as I haven't ever used/seen them before. I haven't actually plugged an XLR into it so see if they're hard to get out too.