This might belong in the moan zone but...

[Gravity]

The guitarist in my band sent me a craigslist posting the other day about a guy looking for "professional" services for his band's video shoot at a show they were doing.

Need Experienced Live Recording engineer

Now I normally don't even bother, reading that post just screams "We want everything for nothing"... But in part because I'm a masochist, and in part because I was bored, i threw an email to him with a quote that I think was fair. I quoted full split from the stage, recording on HD24's (with backup), full compliment of pres etc.. etc... And politely explained that trying to get pro results for what he was asking while paying about as much as a band member might make (in this town about $150-$250 a night) was probably setting the bar too high.

At any rate, he responded with a polite (although somewhat self-righteous) email saying that he basically agreed with my rates, but he didn't have the money, and he got all kinds of samples that sounded great from people who would do it inside his budget, and how with "the advent of the internet has pretty much shut the door on the "you'll never get that quality for that price.." theory. "

Basically the gist of his e-mail was "Yea, I get that pros charge lots and that's fine, but why pay more when I can lowball people over the internet and get what I want for cheap"

I don't take a lot of issue with everything, but his last line in the e-mail bugged the hell out of me.

To be a little more frank, I dont really see why a guy with some nice gear and a laptop should out earn me three times in one night.

I didn't get into an argument, I just wished him luck with his project and success with his band. But the amount of mis-information and inexperience that's evident in that statement just blew my mind....

I suppose this is just the new way of thinking.

[Paul_Jolstead]

Or you could fold this into the nearby discussion here:

Portable Location Recording Rates?

I can see both sides here. If I were in a band I wouldn't want to pay more for the recording than I was getting paid or could make off the gig. The guy is a delusional for asking for the starts but paying a lowball price. There's a reason the expression "you get what you pay for" exists.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by Paul_Jolstead

I can see both sides here. If I were in a band I wouldn't want to pay more for the recording than I was getting paid or could make off the gig.

As the client, though, you can't look at it like that. The recording will be around longer than the gig, so it's an investment. It's amazing that bands are willing to pay a couple thousand dollars for a studio CD but when it comes to making a live album or DVD they want it for free.

[videoteque]

The recording will be around longer than the gig, so it's an investment.

Serious people can understand that, lowball-too-much-drugs-when-young-musicians don't. It's that easy.

If you clients look like this: don't bother arguing!!!

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by Paul_Jolstead

Or you could fold this into the nearby discussion here:

Portable Location Recording Rates?

I can see both sides here. If I were in a band I wouldn't want to pay more for the recording than I was getting paid or could make off the gig. The guy is a delusional for asking for the starts but paying a lowball price. There's a reason the expression "you get what you pay for" exists.

I think my issue is that he really believes that he'll get equal results by paying less. Based on the 'samples' other people have given him of their work, he's completely convinced that he doesn't need to spend more. I told him that if he could find someone to turn out 'professional' product for $150 a night, I'd quit the business, because i wouldn't be able to compete.

He's basically sure that Craigslist has ended the era of needing to pay to get quality. I'd love to hear some of these samples he's gotten.

[boojum]

I think we would all like to hear what he gets for his money. I hope he shoots you a copy.

[Shadow_7]

I guess the AD was reworded since your post. And it's hard to tell if he's JUST needing 16 channels of capture, or 16 channels of mics, stands, cables, and the whole kit. And since he's wanting it synced to video, is there some form of world clock / adat / ??? needed as a requirement. Or a split out to feed the video gear? Just how much of the kit is provided, or how much is needed? So it's a club with an audio system, that could mean a lot of things or nothing.

[Petrus]

Quote:
To be a little more frank, I dont really see why a guy with some nice gear and a laptop should out earn me three times in one night.

I have nice gear (Photo/Video/Audio) and 2 laptops and 2 tabletops, but my wife out earns me 4x per hour with just one laptop...

She is an IT consultant.

Life ain't fair (but I am not really complaning...).

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by Gravity

I think my issue is that he really believes that he'll get equal results by paying less. Based on the 'samples' other people have given him of their work, he's completely convinced that he doesn't need to spend more.

Gravity! If he is getting samples that he is happy with, then he DOESN'T and SHOULDN'T pay more. He's found something that is a level of quality that he is happy with. He may call it "professional" quality and you may call it something else, but the point was that he made a smart move by requesting samples and has now found a service that can provide a result that he's happy with.

I needed a show flier recently. I ended up working with someone on the cheap. Some graphic artists would have probably been indignant at what I was asking, but I found someone who was affordable and quick and I was very satisfied.

[Jimbo]

I think this says it all (from the Craislist post):

I need someone with some decent samples, and the proper equipment, to come to the gig, hang out all night and capture the audio. (Thinking pro tools or similar, 16 channels in, laptop, and an external hard drive.

He clearly wants someone to take the direct outs from the board, and hit record. If he wanted more, then he wouldn't expect the engineer to just "hang out all night".

This guy has got it all figured out!

[XLR2XLR]

Well all figured except for the fact that there is no PT system on a laptop
with 16 analog i/o.

And I record from D.O. a fair bit and I am far from "hanging out all night"

D.O. is a painless and very decent way of recording if you are diplomatic with the FOH's use of gates and gain structure.

In some respects there is a whole lot less cabling to go wrong.

[Jimbo]

I'm certainly not knocking the D.O.....just trying to paint a picture of what's in this dodo's head.

[jabney]

To be a little more frank, I dont really see why a guy with some nice gear and a laptop should out earn me three times in one night.

Perhaps offer to record for the same rate as a band member if you get to go up on stage and perform some songs of your choice. And if you get to be first in line for the groupie attention after the show.

Seriously, though, you have very little to gain other than the amount you get paid to record that single performance - no matter how fine a job you do. Whereas the band could - in theory - put on such a great show that the tracks you record might be used to make the next, "Live at Leeds" or the next "Cheap Trick at Budokan."

I came back to edit this post to make it it clear that Gravity did NOT say the original quoted part himself - he was simply posting what the craigslist guy replied.

In the meantime, I also took a look at the craigslist ad, and wow! "Flexibility" means going to the venue ahead of time to 'check out their audio system.' Since the only way to properly check out the audio system is when it's operating. that's one night lost plus transportation, buying a courtesy drink, a tip of course, and probably paying a cover charge. Then the guy wants a mix as well. That's another night or two. Oh and it's got to sync to video which only a 'real pro' can do. My limited experience with time code is that it's a pain to use, and that equipment with time code costs a lot more than equipment without. And that it often doesn't get used anyhow (at the non-broadcast level at least).


best,

john

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by XLR2XLR

Well all figured except for the fact that there is no PT system on a laptop
with 16 analog i/o.

And I record from D.O. a fair bit and I am far from "hanging out all night"

D.O. is a painless and very decent way of recording if you are diplomatic with the FOH's use of gates and gain structure.

In some respects there is a whole lot less cabling to go wrong.

Not to be pedantic, but my personal PT rig runs 16ch I/O on a laptop :-)

DO can be ok, but I bring all my own pre's and I refuse to be at the whim of the FOH guy's gain structure. Too many variables. Also, most bars have mackie or similar desks.. Maybe I've gotten to pretentious in my (young) old age.

[XLR2XLR]

Analog? Ins x 16, how?

[bishopthomas]

There are tons of ways to get 16 channels in to a laptop. Daisy chain two of your favorite 8 channel firewire interfaces; preamps/converters and a Profire Lightbridge (32 channels), the list goes on...

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Gravity

Not to be pedantic, but my personal PT rig runs 16ch I/O on a laptop :-)

DO can be ok, but I bring all my own pre's and I refuse to be at the whim of the FOH guy's gain structure. Too many variables. Also, most bars have mackie or similar desks.. Maybe I've gotten to pretentious in my (young) old age.

Anyone defending that guy seems to be selling themselves short...I think you are right to be angry about this way of thinking (which is simply insulting)..but it is nothing new...just seems like its more prevelant (is that a word?) now ..I would just chalk it up to..."good thing I found out before I git to the gig what an arseface this guy is"...don't sweat it...you are right in the way you would approach it anything less is pointless and bush.

Nick

[XLR2XLR]

I meant what laptop PT system has 16 analog I/O?

I was not aware one existed unless the DIGI 002 jobby has 8 analog I/O and
8 by light pipe with a sep preamp unit.

16 channels of audio on FW sounds like a nightmare in a studio never mind on the road.

[Jimbo]

16 channels of audio over FW is a breeze!!!

Now, setting up those sixteen channels is another story...

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I think you are right to be angry about this way of thinking (which is simply insulting)..but it is nothing new...just seems like its more prevelant (is that a word?) now.

Your point-of-view that gets insulted because someone doesn't care about something as much as you is nothing new. Let's face it, if they guy doesn't value the "pristine" recording that Gravity is offering, then he shouldn't be forced to use it. There are other options that people are more than happy with, and Gravity can find other people who are looking for his price/quality.

How many of you didn't buy the nicest cars? I know people who would be insulted by your lack of care.

How many of you didn't buy the premium paint for your house? I know people who would be insulted by your lack of concern for quality.

How many of you are using monitors that cost less than $1000 per speaker? Oh, for shame...

You can't force people to have the same priorities as you. And not every performance/recording has sales potential. If he wants a low-key recording and found someone to provide it, then great. We should be encouraging the world of recording-at-large, not approaching this with an elitest attitude that says it's "my way or the highway". Gravity did the right thing by sending the poster an email with what he was offering. And it sounds like the guy's response was rude, but he still has the right to chose something which fits his quality/price point.

[edwinhurwitz]

Originally Posted by XLR2XLR

I meant what laptop PT system has 16 analog I/O?

I was not aware one existed unless the DIGI 002 jobby has 8 analog I/O and
8 by light pipe with a sep preamp unit.

16 channels of audio on FW sounds like a nightmare in a studio never mind on the road.

I do 24 channels of FW on the road almost nightly (MH 2882s) and sometimes 32 channels with no issues at all. It's not really a problem unless you hang the audio drive off the same bus. That's what an eSATA expresscard is for!


Edwin

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Your point-of-view that gets insulted because someone doesn't care about something as much as you is nothing new. Let's face it, if they guy doesn't value the "pristine" recording that Gravity is offering, then he shouldn't be forced to use it. There are other options that people are more than happy with, and Gravity can find other people who are looking for his price/quality.

How many of you didn't buy the nicest cars? I know people who would be insulted by your lack of care.

How many of you didn't buy the premium paint for your house? I know people who would be insulted by your lack of concern for quality.

How many of you are using monitors that cost less than $1000 per speaker? Oh, for shame...

You can't force people to have the same priorities as you. And not every performance/recording has sales potential. If he wants a low-key recording and found someone to provide it, then great. We should be encouraging the world of recording-at-large, not approaching this with an elitest attitude that says it's "my way or the highway". Gravity did the right thing by sending the poster an email with what he was offering. And it sounds like the guy's response was rude, but he still has the right to chose something which fits his quality/price point.

You make a good point...I used to do a lot of painting to support my music habit and became quite good at it ...I would always get insulted when people balked at my quotes (which were realistic for a good job) they would say "I can get some students to do it for half the price!" and you know what? they could...it's just that in the end, they weren't happy with the job generally and a lot of times I was called in to redo the crap job anyway.......so yes, in theory, this particular client may be happy with a crap recording, but in my experience, a person that doesn't appreciate the value of another's work will always be looking to get something for nothing...which is....well....insulting.....price point really doesn't mean f*ck all when you are in the process of recording....there really is only two ways to do anything...the right way and the wrong way...the sooner you realize this the better off you'll be...sorry for the preaching, but this is true


Nick

PS yes you can absolutely do something the right way on a tight budget

[NorseHorse]

True.

Personally, I guess I just get insulted when I KNOW what I want and someone else it trying to TELL me that I actually want something else more expensive.

If I want to spend more money on a microphone than my car, let me! If someone wants to spend more money on their car than their mix, I'll let them. And I certainly won't mind if they change their mind and come back to hire me...

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

True.

Personally, I guess I just get insulted when I KNOW what I want and someone else it trying to TELL me that I actually want something else more expensive.

If I want to spend more money on a microphone than my car, let me! If someone wants to spend more money on their car than their mix, I'll let them. And I certainly won't mind if they change their mind and come back to hire me...

Agreed...that's why I try not to take it too personally anymore...everyone has different wants/needs at different times.

Nick

[Remoteness]

It's true, if you're experienced in that field or need you should always go with your gut feeling whether your idea or concept is expensive or inexpensive.

Sometimes the best plan is not the most expensive plan, but it's all relative to whom you ask.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Do what your inner voice is telling you, 9 out of 10 times if you listen to your gut feeling you will be right,

People want lots of different levels of quality. What may be primo for you could be overkill for someone else. Or what is acceptable for you maybe something that is complete inadequate for someone else.

Most people are basically CHEAP and want to get the most bang for the buck. They mostly want the best they can get for the cheapest price possible. But sometimes they want the best and are willing to pay for it. The trick is to be able to read them and understand what they are really looking for.

A couple of months ago I was asked to do some mixing for a recording that was done by someone else. The person we requested my services was very vague about the recording and would only say that it was done under less than ideal circumstances. I asked for the hard drive with the 24 track recordings on it. There was a rather large problem with the dancer's PA system that had been part of the performance. It bled into every microphone and every channel and in some cases obliterated the musician's playing. The person who contacted me wanted me to do mix downs of all the tracks and get rid of the noise at the same time and this all had to be done in a period of three days, When he first approached me he said it was one song then when he brought over the drive he said it was the whole concert which was about 70 minutes long. This in three days and he did not want to spend over a certain amount of money on the mixing. The task was not doable with the conditions imposed on me and I had my inner voice screaming that I should not do it and that is what I did. I refused the job. My potential client was upset to say the least but the outcome of this would have not been what he wanted so not only would he have not been happy he would also be out a sizable sum of cash or would have refuse to pay me saying it was not as requested. He finally purchased the entry level of Pro tools and decided to do it himself. I don't think it came out at all the way he expected but maybe he learned something in the process.

Always try and take the professional approach to everything that you do and try not do do things that your inner voice (gut feeling) is telling you not to do and you will come out on top 99% of the time.

[abtech]

I did a few shows over the summer for my old Sound Company. Basically took FOH direct outs into my X-48 and then took them back to my studio and mixed about 4 or 5 of the better performances. Since nothing was ever set up in terms of what was going to happen to the recordings, the Sound Company referred one of the artists to me after he heard a CD of 5 tunes. The guy went on an on about how great everything sounded and how it was the best recording of his band that he had ever heard. He asked how much I would charge to give him a rough mix of the show (2+ hours, outdoor festival headliner) and to mix 6 songs for release.

Now considering he never paid a cent for the original tracking, I quoted him 350.00 for the rough mix and 500.00 to mix 6 tunes of his choice. My studio is a Neve/Studer analog room with the X-48 used for archiving and live recording.

I mentioned this was WAAAYYY below our normal rate (mixing 6 tunes could easily take a couple of days), but the guy went apoplectic. He said he had a "buddy" with a huge ProTools rig and all the fixins and that he only charged 200.00 a day (based on 10 hours). I thought a minute and said "If your buddy has the tracks of this show, let him mix them". He then proceeded to tell me I had no right to keep him from using the original recordings.

I told him to have a nice day . . .