Classical & Flamenco Guitar recording (PC card)

[GrafRay]

Hi, I am nylon guitar user )). Read this forum and use search about a month....Not so much time ago i recorded my first audio file with MXL 2003 microphone + Sound Craft Compact 4 + Creative Audigy SE sound card

http://grafray.com/files/alex_konst/...st_edition.mp3

I of course did not like the quality of recording and want to record much better ... Now I have bayardynamic MC930 stereo set and MXL 2003. My PC is Core2Quad Q6600 + 8 Gb mamory.

What I need
I need a sound card to my PC with good enough preamps to record my nylon string Guitar.

Here is an example i found here at forum that sounds very good recorded with MC930 and Mackie Interface But I do not know what way it sounds on Guitar
Mackie - 400F

http://grafray.com/files/alex_konst/...30_macki_2.mp3

Here I found one more card Steinberg MR816CSX

Could you please give me some advice with card is better for my guitar recording? I have heard RME 800 here on forum - I did not like the sound.
If you have any records made with Mackie Interface or Steinberg MR816CSX with nylon guita, please give an example and of course some advice..... Mackie interface have much better noise parameters then Steinberg but I am not able to choose by this parameter only

Here is my try to record my guitar to ONE MC930 mic + Compact 4 + Audigy SE

http://grafray.com/files/alex_konst/...udidgiSE_2.mp3

I need much deeper sound because Compact 4 + Audigy SE are about 220 USD and Mackie interface is about 700 - 900 USD, Steinberg is about 1400 USD..... So I wait much better sound from them


Thanks, Alexey Konstantinov

[W-W-Int]

get a good mic pre-amp
THEN get a good line level recording interface. basically the problem is your recording through a spirit compact 4 and using it's mic pre-amps. the sound blaster is not the bane of civilization people make it out to be. to be perfectly clear i do not believe it is quiet, it is slightly noisy in recording situations. that can be helped a great deal by getting it a hot clean signal, it gets noisy because it's pre-amp is garbage. if you feed it the right level signal it aint so bad. but anyway the only reason i am saying this at all is so you understand that no matter what audio interface you get, if you don't feed it a correct level signal it will be noisier than it should be or sound flatter than it should.

the e-mu 0404m has very good a/d converters in it and can be had cheap. if you feed it line level signals from a good mic pre then you'd have a very good recording.

the mackie 400f is a lot of cash and the mic pre's in it aren't as good as mackie boasts. compared to an allen & heath mix wizard mixer's mic pre's they are really mediocre. compared to a good stand alone mic pre they suck.

[GrafRay]

So i need to get DACS Clarity MicAmp 2
DACS Clarity MicAmp 2 Channel Ultra Low Noise Microphone Preamp

And simple sound card like EMU with good convertors .... is it ok?

As for me Steinberg sounds a little bit dry - it is good for POP music, Hip Hop and so on... As I understand the main thing is PREAMP that give me LIVE and WET sound not dry and converters are not so important . Am I right?

[W-W-Int]

converters are important but more important is the mic pre amp you use to take the mic from mic level up to line level to feed the converters. that mic pre amp will affect the signal far more drastically than the difference between one good converter and another good converter will. a good a/d converter simply tries to as accurately as possible capture what it's fed. if you feed it a signal that sounds flat and dull it records flat and dull to the best of it's ability. if you feed it a warm rich sound it tries to capture that warm and rich sound as accurately as possible.
the difference is with a mic pre you add something to the sound that's pleasing or get one that handles nuances well.

with converters you always go for accuracy and try to avoid adding anything. that's why the audigy isn't for anyone using mics, the audigy pre amp is a noisy crappy joke. it's converters are actually okay, it's pre-amp stage is what is garbage. which means you have already had a first hand listening experience with what matters more, the pre-amp for the mic. going to the spirit as bad as those mic pres are you notice a huge difference over the audigy.

get a really good mic pre and again you'll hear the difference over the spirit. however the difference will be lesser than the spirit over an audigy, as the audigy once again has crappy pre-amps.

also mic placement is extremely critical to getting the most out of your sound for recording live instruments. where you aim towards on the instrument and how close it is and how much of the mic pre amps boost you use to compensate for distance all affects the sound in subtle ways. experimentation is key here, keep going till you find what level of boost from the pre and mic angle and distance works best for the sound you want to achieve.

and yes the converters in the e-mu 0404m are extremely good for a really cheap price. they are the same converters in the digidesign pro tools hd system. the pre-amps in front of those converters aren't as good as the pro tools hd ones but, as you'll be doing most all of your signal boosting at the mic pre it won't affect it much if at all.

[W-W-Int]

and just so you know there are 2 different 0404 cards. the standard 0404 and the 0404m. get the m version.

[W-W-Int]

as far as mic pre amps to team up with your particualr microphones...
there is a forum area on here where you'll get some much better advice than in the computer area, ask over there so much gear so little time

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...o-little-time/

[GrafRay]

Ok thanks I understand
http://grafray.com/files/alex_konst/Cantate.mp3
http://grafray.com/files/alex_konst/DakingAgain.mp3
http://grafray.com/files/alex_konst/DakingPerc.mp3

Here are examples of DACS Clarity MicAmp recording and first of them Cantate.mp3 is recorded with MC930 microphones... And I can hear - the sound is Great even in my headphones AKG77
I collected the recordings from this forum users

If anyone can add some advice - you are wellcome because i am new at sound recording area

[Oxytoxine]

i can only advice you: don't spend too much time and don't let you suck too much into this what-is-the-best-preamp discussion. as a search on this forum will show you it's neverending and more "religion" than "science".
summary: they crappy and cheapest might really be crappy, but there are many good options in the midrange. it by no means is necessary to spend a fortune i expensive-as-hell pres to get nice results, no one out there will be able to tell the difference in blind tests.
the mentioned emu m series or the emu 0404 usb are a solid choice. other good and not too expensive choices are the m-audio fast track ultra or profire 620. the steinberg product you mentioned is a bit expensive but has sweet yamaha converters. apropos yamaha: the yamaha GO and the terratec phase interfaces (both are technically the same) have very good pres (the ones that can be found in SSL desks) and are going extremely cheap now (it is however true that some of these interfaces have certain disadvantages that might be relevant in certain contexts, e.g. a somewhat higher latency / not the best programmed drivers. but for recording acoustic guitars, 5 ms latency is not critical).

good luck and don't let the technical slutz discussions that for sure will follow spoil you the joy in playing/recording the guitar

oxy

[GrafRay]

thanks Oxy ... good talk ... If i have a possibility to take some devices for TEST i even will not ask questions here .... But i can not take anything for my own test and that is the question about all this

[Jim@SSL]

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

apropos yamaha: the yamaha GO and the terratec phase interfaces (both are technically the same) have very good pres (the ones that can be found in SSL desks)

oxy

Sorry, but we don't license our technology to anyone else. Yamaha pres (or anyone else's) have absolutely nothing to do with anything from SSL.

Having recorded a lot of flamenco stuff over the last couple of years I can say by far the best advice is to position your mics carefully. Take your time over it, and this will make a far more significant effect on your sound than the equipment you use. I find a matched stereo pair of SDCs on neck and soundhole, with a LDC approx 50cms below the bottom of the guitar on axis with the neck gives the best sound above a wooden "kickboard" l - blend the 3 signals to taste.


Also, leave a lot of headroom in your pres for the thumb slaps on the guitar body and the extreme dynamic range of playing. A transparent limiter can be useful for this....

And record in a good room. Carpets are not a big friend of flamenco guitar...

[GrafRay]

mmm... good stuff for microphone positions - very interesting
The dinamic range was very little ... i used maximither to to make it wide...

I think it will be much better with 3 mic's tracks

[GrafRay]

Jim@SSL

Can you explane whose neck you mean ? My neck ? Or a guitar's neck ? Or maybe.... your neck ? I did not undestand correct .....

[RealSon]

I could write a whole book about the question zou have, but tokeep it simple...

Invest in a good mic & preamp combination (I suggest zou to rent a couple of mics and pres to find the combination you like, and then buy the combination you liked most for your instrument).

On the interface side, as you asked me for my opinion: I own a Steinberg MR816 CSX, and I love it. The unit sounds absolutely great, and in that price league, I think it's unbeatable.

Mic position and the room as mentioned before should play a HUGE role on your recordings as well. Don't forget about that before you invest good money on gear.

Last but not least, your instrument should sound nothing but GREAT.
You can have the best recording environment in the world, but it wont be worth anything if you are recording a crappy sounding instrument.

Some food for thought. Maybe that helps a little??

[GrafRay]

ReaLsoN ... super post ... but can you record a couple of seconds of instrument sound by your Steinberg? Any way, thanks. You know music good as i see .... I am about "Last but not least, your instrument should sound nothing but GREAT."

[Recording David]

The absolute best sound I have found for this type of work is a pair of Schoeps in MS (I use MK5 + MK8) with a DAV BG1 or BG2 preamp and Mytek ADC. 'Pop' style recording techniques (i.e. close) are not effective IMO as you do not get the same sense of space. I like to place the pair about 1-1.5m out from the guitar.

As has been said already the most critical things before you even throw up the mics, are that the instrument sounds amazing and you are in an excellent room.

Solo guitar also needs an *exceptionally* quiet room.

My reference recording for solo guitar is this: Amazon.com: El Diablo Suelto - Guitar Music of Venezuela: Venezuelan Composers, John Williams (Performer): Music

Or listen here: http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...43647&s=143444

If you check out the Soundcloud link in my signature there are some examples of my own solo guitar recording work.

[GrafRay]

Nice forum... now i know almost all i need DAV will match my bayers MC930 because the preamp is a little bit harsh but MC930 are a little bit SOFT or smooth .....
David I saw at your web page you use Mackie Onyx...is it Sound Card from Mackie? They have lot of products ....Have you tested Mackie preamps vs DAV?

[Recording David]

^^ I use the Onyx mixer for signal routing only and completely bypass the preamps. While the Onyx preamps are fine they are not in the same league as the DAV. I don't use the Onyx soundcard. I use a Mytek 8x96 ADC into a Lynx AES-16 card.

[GrafRay]

Ok thanks ... very good recording.... you play the guitar so good

[Oxytoxine]

Jim;

i'm extremely sorry for having spread this misinformation!

i meant to write SPL (Sound Performance Lab) and not SSL (Solid State Logic).

as it was for example stated in this review: AMAZONA.de - Studio > Test: Terratec PHASE X24 FW , the pres in the mentioned interfaces were developed by SPL.

i just remembered the wrong abbreviation, it was not intentionally. i'm sure your pres are even better.. ;-)

oxy (apologizing again and promising to reduce wine comsumption in order to prevent such forgetfulness in future)

Originally Posted by Jim@SSL

Sorry, but we don't license our technology to anyone else. Yamaha pres (or anyone else's) have absolutely nothing to do with anything from SSL.

Having recorded a lot of flamenco stuff over the last couple of years I can say by far the best advice is to position your mics carefully. Take your time over it, and this will make a far more significant effect on your sound than the equipment you use. I find a matched stereo pair of SDCs on neck and soundhole, with a LDC approx 50cms below the bottom of the guitar on axis with the neck gives the best sound above a wooden "kickboard" l - blend the 3 signals to taste.


Also, leave a lot of headroom in your pres for the thumb slaps on the guitar body and the extreme dynamic range of playing. A transparent limiter can be useful for this....

And record in a good room. Carpets are not a big friend of flamenco guitar...

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by GrafRay

Ok thanks ... very good recording.... you play the guitar so good

That's not me playing - I just make the recordings! But yes, I've had the pleasure to work with some fantastic players!!

[GrafRay]

Great thing .. .. I have found very very useful your posts here and some other users adout classical stuff .... different devices tests... examples of sound - one more great thing i looked for

About my guitar - now i use 150 USD guitar )) But i am going to get real handmade guitar for about 1500 usd ... there are several good guitar masters here in Ukraine

[Reptil]

a DAV BG1 and an AKG C3000 (!) also worked surprisingly well on some recordings here. was perfect for the job.

[GrafRay]

Reptil

are there any sound examples?

Maybe AKG C3000 is a little bit harsh and it will not work good with a little harsh DAV preamp

O ... sorry you mean DAV and AKG C3000 sound GOOD? I did not understand correct

[Recording David]

FYI this would probably be getting more replies if it was in the remote possibilities forum - all the classical guys hang out there.

[GrafRay]

Advice on my practice/recording room for classical guitar

I was surprised with this sound of ART preamps ... RME 400 and "recording studio"

Very nice recording the only thing i will add some EQ to it

[RealSon]

Originally Posted by GrafRay

ReaLsoN ... super post ... but can you record a couple of seconds of instrument sound by your Steinberg? Any way, thanks. You know music good as i see .... I am about "Last but not least, your instrument should sound nothing but GREAT."

Glad I could help.

I cannot record anything for you at the moment as I am on vacation in Thailand.

Honestly, I dont think having somebody record something for you in his environment will help you make a decision about what interface, mic or pre you should buy for YOUR environment anyway.

I suggest you to buy a Steinberg interface, rent a few mics and pres and to try everything out in YOUR studio and with your instrument and to see how you like the results.

If you dont like the interface you can return it easily (I am pretty sure you dont have to tho).

Greetings from Paradise.