Haydn's Creation

[maestro]

I've had a client asking me to record a live performance of Haydn's 'The Creation'. Set for three vocal soloists (soprano, tenor, and bass), chorus, and a large Classical orchestra (3 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, contrabassoon, 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones, timpani, and the usual string sections of first and second violins, violas, cellos, and double basses. For the recitatives a harpsichord or fortepiano is also used).

Has anyone recorded this or similar works? Any thoughts on Mic choice and setup?

[hughesmr]

What sort of venue? Church? Hall? Live or dead space?

Where will the soloists be?

[NorseHorse]

It was recorded live in Williamsburg two years ago, and I think the engineer just hung two u87s in the hall. I could be mistaken.

I never got to hear how it turned out.

=(

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

It was recorded live in Williamsburg two years ago, and I think the engineer just hung two u87s in the hall.

Norse, what kind of "advice" is that, besides a foolproof recipe for failure...

"maestro", have you ever recorded anything of the kind? There is no specific recipe/setup for the Creation, it's not unlike other oratorios etc., details depend on the individual setup of this performance.

Maybe you should read this recent thread, and then ask and consider what the customer intends to use this recording for. If it's something that matters to them, you might want to consider politely declining the job, so they can find an experienced classical recordist. Maybe you'll be able to be there to look and learn.

If you have experience recording classical/choral/orchestral (I can't quite tell from your posting), then you'll certainly find lots of additional avice here, also by searching previous threads. Maybe you could tell us what you've done and what kind of equipment you have at your disposal?

Daniel

[Don S]

Daniel, I think Norse was inferring that it falls under the standard orchestra/chorus M.O. and therefore can be well recorded with a carefully placed stereo pair. Although it does have inherrent risk!

Maestro, It can be succesfully recorded using 3 stereo pairs. A main pair ORTF/ spaced omni, a pair of flanks and another pair on the chorus if needed. Spots may be needed on the soloists depending where they are located.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

It was recorded live in Williamsburg two years ago, and I think the engineer just hung two u87s in the hall...

Isn't it great the two U87 were in the hall and not outside? Let's think positive.
What is "it"?

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

...
What is "it"?

I think that's what you either get or you don't?

Like Don says, several stereo pairs, not too far and not too close... maybe ringing the edge of the stage? I hope you have the capability of multi-tracking this, because if you do end up with just two mics, the things closest to them will be clear and the things furthest will be muffled and indistinct...

I wouldn't agonize about needing spot mics for soloists, these people generally have plenty of lung power and are probably capable of filling up the hall with sound on their lonesome. Oh, yeah, another thing... if you want to record nice, healthy levels throughout the soft parts, you would be wise to have some kind of safety compressor or limiter so that when the loud parts well up, you don't end up clipping your levels.

Take it from someone who knows. Good luck! Fine piece, that Haydn had a nice way with a melody.

[joelpatterson]

Well speak of the Devil! Here's something I dredged up from 2004... this is a recicative from the second half (No. 22 in the nomenclature) done in a soaring church in Bennington, Vermont.

http://www.4shared.com/file/87472873...tile_womb.html

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I wouldn't agonize about needing spot mics for soloists, these people generally have plenty of lung power and are probably capable of filling up the hall with sound on their lonesome.

I'd respectfully disagree, esp. if the soloists are to the left or right of the conductor. Some extra presence is usually required.

Oh, yeah, another thing... if you want to record nice, healthy levels throughout the soft parts, you would be wise to have some kind of safety compressor or limiter so that when the loud parts well up, you don't end up clipping your levels.

I think that's been discussed in the other thread, too, but I'll add that I'd NEVER apply compression or limiting during recording... As for healthy levels, 24 bit recording will allow you to no longer worry about that...


Daniel

[loranoyd]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Well speak of the Devil! Here's something I dredged up from 2004... this is a recicative from the second half (No. 22 in the nomenclature) done in a soaring church in Bennington, Vermont.

Excellent! Very well done. Can you give us a quick rundown of the mics, amps, and effects, and a brief insight into your approach to post production? That is the precision, clarity and "human-ness" of sound that I am striving for. Many thanks.

Regards,

Lloyd

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by loranoyd

... a brief insight ...

I will guess there was a pair of Oktava 012's in ORTF over the conductor's head... probably a pair of CAD E-100's out sorta wide, or maybe they were E-350's? Some kind of spot on the harpsichord... pre's had to be Syteks... and however much this will surely SHOCK the sensibilites of the more delicate souls around here, I was probably using Behringer 4600's as safety compressors...

(pauses to revive the fallen with smelling salts...)

... and then mixed down in Digital Performer. I like to do the side-chain compressor thing in the mixdown, where you designate one set of mics as the "lead singers" and as levels rise, the "backup singers" get squashed as needed.

Along with a little judicious EQ here and there. Nothing too fancy or complicated, just sitting back and listening and trying stuff out until it's all clear and emphatic.

[maestro]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

What sort of venue? Church? Hall? Live or dead space?

Where will the soloists be?

It is taking place in a church. I assume the soloists will be in front of the orchestra?

Originally Posted by d_fu

Norse, what kind of "advice" is that, besides a foolproof recipe for failure...

"maestro", have you ever recorded anything of the kind? There is no specific recipe/setup for the Creation, it's not unlike other oratorios etc., details depend on the individual setup of this performance.

Maybe you should read this recent thread, and then ask and consider what the customer intends to use this recording for. If it's something that matters to them, you might want to consider politely declining the job, so they can find an experienced classical recordist. Maybe you'll be able to be there to look and learn.

If you have experience recording classical/choral/orchestral (I can't quite tell from your posting), then you'll certainly find lots of additional avice here, also by searching previous threads. Maybe you could tell us what you've done and what kind of equipment you have at your disposal?

Daniel

I assure you if i felt i was unable to competently record this i would gladly pass the job onto someone who can. I may still do that.

I have a 744T which gives me only 4 channels.

Mics are 4006 x 2, AEA R88, Neumann KM140, Rode NT5 x2, AKG 414 x 1, AKG Solidtube x1, SM81 x1, Beta 58 x2, SM57 x1. Perhaps a Bock 251 by then.

I have Digi 002 and usually connect Cranesong Spider for conversion/pres. It probably makes sense to have a backup recording system?

Originally Posted by Don S

Daniel, I think Norse was inferring that it falls under the standard orchestra/chorus M.O. and therefore can be well recorded with a carefully placed stereo pair. Although it does have inherrent risk!

Maestro, It can be succesfully recorded using 3 stereo pairs. A main pair ORTF/ spaced omni, a pair of flanks and another pair on the chorus if needed. Spots may be needed on the soloists depending where they are located.

Anyone want to contribute to micing choices?
What are potential phase issues?

Cardioids on Chorus to reject some of orchestra etc?

Thanks for all advice so far

[joelpatterson]

The stereo ribbon three feet over the conductor's head, and three feet back, the DPA's out to the side, like 2/3rds of the way to either side. Done.

[hughesmr]

You really should get word on where the soloists will be. Some performance practice purists will place the soloists in front of the chorus but behind the band. If they aren't at least spotted from there, it's a recipe for disaster. If the soloists are up front with the conductor, spotting them may be unnecessary.

Also since the orchestra is rather large, I think spotting the chorus would be beneficial. Without hearing/knowing the room, I'd probably start safe with the 4006 as my main pair, and try the Neumann and Rodes as soloist/choral pickups. The R88 as main wih DPA flanks could work, but I'd think it would be a much more finnicky arrangement. Choral/soloist spots are much more important to the overall picture than flanks for the orchestra.

Just my 0.0.

[NorseHorse]

D_Fu, you're totally right. I forgot to mention that I assumed it was horrible.

Do NOT record with two u87s.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

...Some performance practice purists will place the soloists in front of the chorus but behind the band. ...

The real purist also might place the chorus in front of the orchestra, as Haydn did...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by maestro

I assure you if i felt i was unable to competently record this i would gladly pass the job onto someone who can. I may still do that.

I wasn't making assumptions, I just couldn't read from your post whether you had previous experience with setups of this size...

I have a 744T which gives me only 4 channels.

Not ideal, I would say. Can you get hold of at least an 8-channel recorder?

Mics are 4006 x 2, AEA R88, Neumann KM140, Rode NT5 x2, AKG 414 x 1, AKG Solidtube x1, SM81 x1, Beta 58 x2, SM57 x1. Perhaps a Bock 251 by then.

Forget the dynamic mics, but the rest is a fairly solid base.
My pick would be 4006 as AB main, Rodes on the choir (ORTF or widely spaced, depending on the size of the choir. Maybe even on two stands - which reminds me, have you got good stands?)
Use the 140 for the soloists (you want a neutral mic here, not too close up), if there are duets or more, add the 81 or maybe the 414 next to it. If you do get 8 channels, either of these two could also help with flutes or oboes or so, along with maybe the AKG (never tried that one...). I also have no experience with ribbons, so if had to pick from your mics, I'd try the R88 somewhere in the continuo (harps., cello, bass).

It probably makes sense to have a backup recording system?

Sure does, even if it's just a stereo mixdown.

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

(pauses to revive the fallen with smelling salts...)

Thanks indeed. Compressors or not, this recording is (how to say it diplomatically?) pretty diametrically opposed to my idea of a good sounding oratorio recording... But that may be OT and not PC here.

... and then mixed down in Digital Performer. I like to do the side-chain compressor thing in the mixdown, where you designate one set of mics as the "lead singers" and as levels rise, the "backup singers" get squashed as needed.

Ouch...

[joelpatterson]

I'm really trying not to hurt anyone... especially anyone's toes... and then especially a diplomat!

[boojum]

I recently recorded another Handel chorale, the Messiah. I thought a pair of 4006 TL's above the conductor would do the trick. Fortunately the first performance was to an almost empty house because of a huge snowstorm. Even the tenor could not make it.

For the second night I jammed a Schoeps MS in front of the soloists as a rush mic placement. The contralto was very soft. The tenor was plenty loud as was the soprano. The baritone was about normal.

Lesson learned: I can always discard the tracks I do not need. But I cannot create out of thin air the ones I wish I had made. In the future I will always mic the soloists rather than take a chance. These are the things I am learning. I am lucky to have had a second performance and a discard by the conductor of the first performance because of the missing tenor. I dodged the bullet this time.

I would mic the soloists differently had I to do it over again. I was lucky this time.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by d_fu

...
Thanks indeed. Compressors or not, this recording is (how to say it diplomatically?) pretty diametrically opposed to my idea of a good sounding oratorio recording... But that may be OT and not PC here.

Ouch...

The text is really interesting at 0:40
"...and suddenly the flexible tiger appears..." Did I get that right?
The string section certainly sounded like a tiger was on stage and they were shaking in fear...

[joelpatterson]

You heard it!

"With sudden leap the flexible tiger appears. The nimble stag bears up his branching head. With flying mane, and fiery look..."

Lost something in translation, perhaps?

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Lost something in translation, perhaps?

Yes. I believe the correct translation is "All your base are belong to us."

Cheers,
--
Don

[maestro]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I wasn't making assumptions, I just couldn't read from your post whether you had previous experience with setups of this size...

No problem d_fu. I think its best if i record it with Digi 002/Pro Tools and use the 744T as a backup with a stereo pair (perhaps R88)

I need to invest in good stands. Can you recommend any please?

Originally Posted by boojum

Lesson learned: I can always discard the tracks I do not need. But I cannot create out of thin air the ones I wish I had made. In the future I will always mic the soloists rather than take a chance.

I completely agree with this

[pkautzsch]

4006 spaced as main pair, maybe 3rd row. Will then *probably* pick up soloists well enough that you don't need to spot each individually. One cardioid about 5ft in front of soloists can do the trick then when number of channels is an issue (and it will be with a 002...) You'll also need to take advantage of bleed and use it the right way. Don't fight all kinds of bleed. Fight some, use some other.
I'd recommend NOT using the 140 as soloist spot, rather the 81.
Then, you need to somehow get presence into the orchestra and the choir.
If choir is not too large, the R88 might be good, as it will best reject the brass and woodwinds (here we don't want too much bleed, since the choir is a high-probability EQ candidate). You'd then use the remaining mics to spot sections. In Creation, it's especially the violas doing lots of interesting stuff which easily gets drowned. C414 (maybe in fig-8 to eliminate bleed from brass&winds - again EQ candidate) NT 5s would be sufficient for violins, maybe (number of channels...) even placed between 1st and 2nd vlns. - KM 140 can give a very nice woodwind sound. The large solidtube might be better on a not-so-high stand, basses maybe, or (if needed) harpsi.

Stands: I use K&M 20800 with longer booms, but there are quite a few similar stands. You want to get at least 8 ft high if you record an oratorio with 8 channels, so you don't pick out individual players, but rather pick up whole sections. And you want to get the mic somewhere where you can't put a stand, that's why you do need a longish boom (and a longish horizontal boom doesn't play well with large microphones).
You'll need lots of cabling, as nobody wants you to sit right next to the orchestra. A multicore is helpful.

Off to Bruckner 4 now. Decca Tree, Outriggers, 5 section spots. Good concert hall. I don't really need the spots, but you can never know, and I want to try out some mics.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I'd recommend NOT using the 140 as soloist spot, rather the 81.

I wonder why... I'll admit I've never tried (mostly use AKG 460/480 with extension tubes for inconspicuousness), and I've never used an 81, but I don't doubt that the 140 would do a decent job spotting classical soloists. Have you found it to be otherwise?

And you want to get the mic somewhere where you can't put a stand, that's why you do need a longish boom (and a longish horizontal boom doesn't play well with large microphones).

There's a solution for mic stands where you can't put a stand...
Quoting an earlier posting of mine from a thread you might find interesting:
"I really wouldn't want to be without my K&M 260s any more, both for the purpose mentioned above and as ideal stands for spots, often in combination with the K&M 1m extension tube."

Off to Bruckner 4 now. Decca Tree, Outriggers, 5 section spots. Good concert hall. I don't really need the spots, but you can never know, and I want to try out some mics.

Let's hear some samples...

[phil.]

Hey Maestro,

I just finished recording Haydn's "The Seasons", also an oratorio for choir, orchestra and three soloists. The main pair were 2 x DPA4006 roughly about 2,50 from the soloist and three meters above the stage. Would have liked to be a bit closer, but this was as much as the flying array in that hall could be moved to the front.

The choir was spotted with two MKH8040 and one MKH40 (L-C-R).

In this recording the choir spots were well too close to the group and only around 2.10 meters high. As a result the 60 singers sound more like 30 thru the choir spots and it becomes difficult to find a good balance with the main array.

If you are spotting the choir it is advisable to be far/high enough, to cover each section well. Of course then bleed from the back of the orchestra comes into play, so you must be careful about that, but spotting the choir is a must in my opinion.

Here is a sample, maybe it helps!

All the best and have fun

Phil

[maestro]

Originally Posted by phil.

Hey Maestro,

I just finished recording Haydn's "The Seasons", also an oratorio for choir, orchestra and three soloists. The main pair were 2 x DPA4006 roughly about 2,50 from the soloist and three meters above the stage. Would have liked to be a bit closer, but this was as much as the flying array in that hall could be moved to the front.

The choir was spotted with two MKH8040 and one MKH40 (L-C-R).

In this recording the choir spots were well too close to the group and only around 2.10 meters high. As a result the 60 singers sound more like 30 thru the choir spots and it becomes difficult to find a good balance with the main array.

If you are spotting the choir it is advisable to be far/high enough, to cover each section well. Of course then bleed from the back of the orchestra comes into play, so you must be careful about that, but spotting the choir is a must in my opinion.

Here is a sample, maybe it helps!

All the best and have fun

Phil

Thanks Phil. You recorded it with 4 channels?

What about this K&M 20811 mic stand for choir/orchestra?

K&M 20811 - Irish International Cyberstore

thank you

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by maestro

What about this K&M 20811 mic stand for choir/orchestra?

I like to use something higher and more solid for my main mic. Guess it's a lighting stand, similar to this one.

[maestro]

I think that is also a 4 metre stand! Is the lighting one sturdier? Can it take a boom?

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by maestro

Thanks Phil. You recorded it with 4 channels?

What about this K&M 20811 mic stand for choir/orchestra?

K&M 20811 - Irish International Cyberstore

thank you

That one is HEAVY and bulky.
This one
K&M 20800 - Irish International Cyberstore
with a boom straight up and you are also 4 m if necessary, but lighter and less bulky. Not much lateral load then possible though.