Haydn's Creation

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by maestro

I think that is also a 4 metre stand! Is the lighting one sturdier? Can it take a boom?

Yes, mine also came with one... Strangely, K&M don't seem to print the number on the stands anywhere.

[maestro]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

That one is HEAVY and bulky.
This one
K&M 20800 - Irish International Cyberstore
with a boom straight up and you are also 4 m if necessary, but lighter and less bulky. Not much lateral load then possible though.

Thanks AES. Have you used it? Would it hold a heavy mic like the AEA R88 for example?

[summer_room]

I have used the K&M 20800 with a blumlein set of 2 coles 4038 (about the same weight as the r88). It was fine, but it was without a boom.

[maestro]

Originally Posted by summer_room

I have used the K&M 20800 with a blumlein set of 2 coles 4038 (about the same weight as the r88). It was fine, but it was without a boom.

Thanks for that. Did you have it set at 4 metres?

[phil.]

Originally Posted by maestro

Thanks Phil. You recorded it with 4 channels?

Hello Maestro,

it was recorded with 5 channels. One stereo pair of DPA4006 for mains and three choir spots (L-C-R). We also had a pair of MK21's on the soloists, but it isn't used in the sample above.

Best,

Phil

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by maestro

Thanks AES. Have you used it? Would it hold a heavy mic like the AEA R88 for example?

Probably not very sturdy. I don't use the R88 so can't comment. I often use the 20800 with pairs of SDC and a boom for extension, but always more or less straight up, since the 20800 doesn't hold lateral weight reliable. If you must decide for one only, you should go with the safer but much heavier 20811. That is also better if it stays in an area where the audience walks. The heavier stand will be less sensitive to people bouncing into it. And people will hit your stand, even if it was orange with pink stripes...

Get both and you always can use the 20800 on the choir also.

[summer_room]

Originally Posted by maestro

Thanks for that. Did you have it set at 4 metres?

The 20800 goes only to 3 meters.
And actually, I think we used a small 211/1 boom arm to give the blumlein a narrow angle.

One thing to watch out for, is the different threads. The 20800 have a 3/8" thread, so you can attach a standard micmount or a small boom to it.
The 20811 goes to 4 meters, and has a bigger 1/2" thread for use with 21231 boom arm, a 2 meter long boom with counterweight.
On the homepage, they write that 21231 has a 3/8" thread - but it also says 'For use with model 20811 and 21411.'
Anyways, my 21231 is 1/2" thread and works with my 20811. With a 3/8" to 1/2" thread converter, it also works with 20800. (The K&M 219 thread adapter does NOT work, it is too wide in the base. I custum-made my own with a narrower base.)

The 20811 is very sturdy (think speakerstand), and very heavy.
Often I have taken off the counterweight of the 21231 boom, and combined it with my lighter Manfrotto alu-stands, for a light travelfriendly (and more unstable!) boomstand. Again I use the 3/8" to 1/2" thread converter to attach the boom.

[roonsbane]

I am recording the "beast" with Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra and a temporary Dale Wareland choir twice this weekend. It should broadcast some Monday night in late March or April. Soloist are: Sophie Daneman, Soprano Tames Taylor, Tenor and Nathan Berg, Bass-baritone. It should be fun.
Cameron

[RobAnderson]

I might try the 4006's combined with the R88 in a pseudo Decca-Tree arrangement with the R88 as the "center" mic in MS configuration. This will give you some options to fill in the center and double as a wind spot.

I'd use the NT5's as choral spots - AB or ORTF depending on the size of the choir, but probably AB. Another option would be to use three on the choir for better overall coverage - maybe the 414 or SM81 in the center.

I would spot the soloist(s) - the 140 would be the least obtrusive visually I think and would work just fine. I prefer to mic my soloists fairly close (i.e. less than a meter) since there tends to be less comb filtering problems with the main array this way, but consider using the pad and even the windscreen if you do this. It is fairly easy to make a close mic sound further away, much harder to make a distant mic sound closer.

It's a little trickier if there are larger ensembles of soloists. In this case, I might use the R88 as a main overall pickup in Blumein or MS and the 4006's as flanks instead of a Decca-Tree style setup. Everything else would probably remain the same. In this case, you may definitely wish to consider using the center choir mic, but pull it back into the orchestra a bit to give you a little bite on the winds.

Hope this helps. Best of luck - let us know how it goes.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I wonder why... I'll admit I've never tried (mostly use AKG 460/480 with extension tubes for inconspicuousness), and I've never used an 81, but I don't doubt that the 140 would do a decent job spotting classical soloists. Have you found it to be otherwise?

I've found the 140/184 to sound a bit "choked" when placed fairly close to a singer. Schoeps MK4 or even Oktava 012 give a more "open" sound with less of a "signature sound". Should try my new old Sennheiser 435 for soloist spots...

Originally Posted by d_fu

There's a solution for mic stands where you can't put a stand...
Quoting an earlier posting of mine from a thread you might find interesting:
"I really wouldn't want to be without my K&M 260s any more, both for the purpose mentioned above and as ideal stands for spots, often in combination with the K&M 1m extension tube."

The 260 with its small-footprint heavy baseplate can be placed where no tripod stand could ever be placed, and I do use it regularly for fairly low mics. But if you want your mic to be right over a music stand right in the middle of a 12-piece cello section,you need some kind of boom, and also if sight lines are critical and you need to have the stand between sections, but want the mic to be above the center of a section.

As to Bruckner 4, client does not want parts of the recording to be published on the web. PM me

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

The 260 with its small-footprint heavy baseplate can be placed where no tripod stand could ever be placed, and I do use it regularly for fairly low mics. But if you want your mic to be right over a music stand right in the middle of a 12-piece cello section,you need some kind of boom, and also if sight lines are critical and you need to have the stand between sections, but want the mic to be above the center of a section.

That's what the 1 meter extension tube I mentioned is good for - you can reach quite high with a 260 and an extension. Ideal for the kind of purpose IMHO.

[summer_room]

Originally Posted by d_fu

That's what the 1 meter extension tube I mentioned is good for - you can reach quite high with a 260 and an extension. Ideal for the kind of purpose IMHO.

Is the extension tube out of production?
I cant find it anywhere...

d_fu: Do you have the product-number?

-jon

[d_fu]

K&M 20005-300.55

No classical recordist should be without...

[summer_room]

Thank you very much!

Now I also found this: K&M 20005-300.01

Great!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by summer_room

Now I also found this: K&M 20005-300.01

I think the difference is the colour. It's available in black and silver. I prefer black...

[summer_room]

Yes, you are right. 300.01 Nickel, 300.55 Black.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by phil.

as a result the 60 singers sound more like 30 thru the choir spots and it becomes difficult to find a good balance with the main array.

I like this recording but I think that the level of the MKHs is not high in the mix because I hear the choir behind the orchestra. For me it could be more present. Not easy when there is no space between the orchestra and the choir.

Great work Phil

JMM

[phil.]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

I like this recording but I think that the level of the MKHs is not high in the mix because I hear the choir behind the orchestra. For me it could be more present. Not easy when there is no space between the orchestra and the choir.

Great work Phil

JMM

Thank you. I totally agree that the choir could be more present, but in this recording, raising the choir spots, quickly makes individual voices stand out. tutt
More height on the choir spots or maybe using sub cardioids could have improved on this situation. Next Time, maybe with the K&M 300.55.

Maestro, have you decided how to approach your recording?

Best,

Phil.

[roonsbane]

So here is what ended up being the final setup for tonight's Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra's performance of "The Creation". The about 45 member choir is on very tall risers behind the orchestra. On the choir I set a 1 meter bar with 2 KM143 Wide Cardioids. These are flanked with my 2 U89's also in wide cardioid. All four are very high up and centered on the middle choir riser. The usual hanging setup that is provided by the hall is 3 omni's along the front of the stage. I use an MK2 on stage right and 2 MK2-S's in the center and stage left to give more clarity to the cello's which seems to be a problem in this hall. Both of the MK2-S's also have low end extension modifications on the CMC5 preamps as well for more beef. There is also a hanging pair of MK4's over the winds in NOS. On Forte Piano I have a KM184, Timp. Spot is TLM103 and spots on soloists are MK4's and KM140's. Everything is running into my ATI 8MX2 Pre's, Apogee AD16X, and into a DM1000 with my M3000 verb. Next week: Tech rehearsal for MN Opera! Jonathan Dove's Pinocchio in the same hall and SPCO playing an all Mozart program in two other locations.

Cameron

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by summer_room

The 20800 goes only to 3 meters.
And actually, I think we used a small 211/1 boom arm to give the blumlein a narrow angle.

One thing to watch out for, is the different threads. The 20800 have a 3/8" thread, so you can attach a standard micmount or a small boom to it.
The 20811 goes to 4 meters, and has a bigger 1/2" thread for use with 21231 boom arm, a 2 meter long boom with counterweight.
On the homepage, they write that 21231 has a 3/8" thread - but it also says 'For use with model 20811 and 21411.'
Anyways, my 21231 is 1/2" thread and works with my 20811. With a 3/8" to 1/2" thread converter, it also works with 20800. (The K&M 219 thread adapter does NOT work, it is too wide in the base. I custum-made my own with a narrower base.)

The 20811 is very sturdy (think speakerstand), and very heavy.
Often I have taken off the counterweight of the 21231 boom, and combined it with my lighter Manfrotto alu-stands, for a light travelfriendly (and more unstable!) boomstand. Again I use the 3/8" to 1/2" thread converter to attach the boom.

Ah that is bad news. I ordered a couple of 219 adapters the other day to go with the 21231 boom and 20800 stand and now I read that they don't fit.. :-(

Does anyone know if there's a ready made 3/8 > 1/2 thread adapters to fit the boom to 20800?


/Peter

[Audiop]

I received information from K&M today and they have a thread that fit 20800/21231.

Article number: 21900-208-01


/Peter