Official 2009 GRAMMY Awards Show Discussion Thread

[Timsplace]

Originally Posted by Timsplace

What was up with the crowd mics during the talking bits too? They were cranking loud with nothing but the murmer of the audience going on.

Does anyone know if they broadcast a seperate stereo mix as well (or is it 5.1 only and the stereo is a down mix)?

Guilty followup to my own post: I've worked a number of remotes (the last two were particularly hairy) and know how absolutely INSANE they can be leading up to showtime. I give HUGE KUDOS to everyone who worked this show. This was a major undertaking. I acknowledge that often a full fax is a luxury that you just don't get especially with all the last minute changes (performers getting arrested etc). As well, more chefs in the kitchen than you can shake a stick at. Hat's off to you all.

End of rant

Tim

[Juice Malone]

Sugarland and Adele were fantastic, moreso Sugarland.

Macca gets one song? Just wow. I was hoping he would do a song on piano too. I liked Dave Grohl on drums, finally a pairing that made sense.

Kid Rock was garbage. Rock and Roll Jesus? Come on buddy.

I became a Coldplay fan after their performance (Jay Z was good too). I think im gonna buy their album. Lead singer was funny. "We are not really hard rock, more of a limestone." The Grammy people on the stage looked shocked when he took the award with him to his seat and went down the front stairs lol.

I loved T.I., he is an entertainer. Great stage presence, drew the crowd in during both performances especially "Swagger Like Us". If Rihanna and Chris Brown didnt start beating on eachother he would have had a 3rd performance with Rihanna for "Live Your Life", shame it didnt happen.

Jamie Foxx killed it during the Four Tops tribute. Neyo sounded the same as always, but Jamie stayed true to the style.

Justin Timberlake was great as expected.

Estelle sounded exactly like the album! Great live voice. Unfortunately I could barely hear the music during some parts, sounded like I was standing outside a club where just the low frequencies were being transmited.

You could have recorded Kenny Chesney's performance, it was that good. The wonderful lighting and presentation also helped make it one of the highlights of the night.

It was great to see Radiohead up there, not only because they are creative, but also because its just nice to see an established act (with members in their 30s and 40s, not 50s and 60s) that has been around a while. They did their thing and have been doing it for nearly 20 years.

Overall, I think the Brits had a nice showing. Adele, Estelle, Sir Paul, Coldplay, Radiohead......

[HughH]

Hello,

Originally Posted by joeq
I believe there are limiters downstream from the mixers, probably the music audio goes into a master audio mix, probably a limiter or three on the network feed, and a lot of cable companies have their own again.

I would not be surprised to walk into that control room and find that the music mix sounded really good to the guys who did it.

you could preemptively nuke your material

you could mix watching a TV set tuned to the broadcast

you could simulcast the audio on FM or Satellite radio
Limiters downstream is not an excuse. They should all be able to monitor the broadcast feed to check their mixes. It sounded like the center channel wasn't linked to LR and the vocals were just getting squashed out of the mix. The mellow songs sounded OK.

You're correct - it sounded mostly great in the broadcast truck at Grammys. Unfortunately in today's digital broadcast world the transmission chain is not that simple. Here are a few of our situations when we're doing these shows.

We're in contact with several folks in NY, NJ, Pittsburgh, and a few other locations during the show who keep up a stream of iChat and SMS messages to us about how it's translating to the home on their particular distribution, both 5.1 and stereo. CBS does indeed have downstream limiters but they only kick in at exceptional levels which as far as I know we did not incur on the Grammys. However we did receive messages that there was significant compression on loud acts part of the way through the show caused by stereo downmixing. This is because anyone who listens in stereo is hearing a downmix of the 5.1 and even though the meter levels may be fine, the Dolby parameters in the downmix devices that are used (and are out of our, or anyone's, control) can cause limiting even though it's not needed. We dropped the levels a bit and the limiting was reduced. The commercials were still louder than we were, but they are so limited already that additional limiting didn't affect them too much.

If you're watching in HD there's no such thing as a stereo mix directly to you. The ATSC spec calls for 5.1 only and if you're listening in stereo then it's being done somewhere. If your head end (cable, sat, terrestrial) is broadcasting 5.1 from the network then your set-top box or tv is doing the downmix to stereo. Sometimes these parameters can be off, such as too much surround or not enough center, and can give you some problematic stereo. If your head end is broadcasting stereo, then they're doing the downmix and the same problems can occur. If your television has SRS or some other "enhancement" turned on then your center channel can be way off. This is especially apparent in the 5.1/DolbyDigital world because the surrounds are phase-shifted, meaning bigger stereo downmix, and the "enhancement" causes it to get even worse. In addition, if your local affiliate is decoding the signal to add their own material, both the 5.1 and stereo downmix can be messed up at that point.

If you're watching in SD then it varies by network. CBS is doing HD and 5.1-only to their affiliates and the affiliates do the downconversion to SD along with the stereo downmix. This is where severe limiting can occur for the reasons mentioned.

We receive a network return feed that is after the integration studio, along with a CBS EastNet feed that is their satellite distribution. However it's only useful for managing gross problems because it's after the BS&P delay, meaning it's at least 10 seconds late. It's a local downlink with a stereo downmix just as the affiliates would do it (we hope).

We also use a DP570 to simulate what the local downmixers are doing. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Dolby is aware of each network's metadata parameters (or in many cases, of what parameters the network ignores) and they're on site with us to help us keep the levels in a magic spot of maximizing the 5.1 while not squashing the stereo. My opinion, having done a lot of these shows, is that the downmix scheme needs to be re-thought.

Our ability to troubleshoot this stuff is getting better mainly because the Dolby folks pay attention. However many of the stereo downmix problems we have are because Dolby has to pay attention to a lot of legacy stuff. The assumption that stereo needs to be compressed at the levels that it currently occurs probably needs to be looked at. There's already an RF Mode compression scheme that allows for truly squashed downmixing (like if you're remodulating it to an old tv), so my opinion is to open up the "standard" downmixing so a normally full 5.1 program doesn't cause squashing on downmix. But that's just my opinion.

Hugh
Denali Video audio engineer

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I think anyone just tuning in and seeing some of the performances would have thought "man after all the years its still the same people making music: Paul Mcartney, Al Green, Neil Diamond & Smokey Robinson".

So true.

I thought it was agonising. Felt more like a Tribute show...

[jfw3]

Originally Posted by jfw3

Some fantastic performances.. some average... others not so good.

It's unfortunate that the entire broadcast has fallen victim to the loudness war. Whoever is running the compression on the overall mix really should take some time and learn how to use a comp/limiter.

It's pretty bad when your sister calls you and asks why the show sounds like it's "breathing and you cannot hear the singers once the bands start playing". Her words, not mine.

I can see this for the first few minutes, but two hours later, nothing has changed.

Unfortunate.

Talked to a few people in other markets and they didn't have the same issues which means the problem was on the end of the local channel. MORONS.

It's kind of like when some guy takes a DVD and plays it in his home theater system using the STADIUM setting because "it sound cool." The guy mixing the movie who makes your monthly salary in a few days didn't think it needed stadium reverb but you know better right

The local clowns should have just hit BYPASS on all their local bullsh!t.

J

[asdf1234]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Radiohead just played "15 step," which is a song in 5/4, accompanied by a Tusk-style marching band.

Actual art at the Grammy's.

Will wonders never cease?

- c

Well said. However, I'm afraid the wonders ceased when In Rainbows didn't win Album of the Year. The fact that Radiohead's masterpiece was even mentioned in the same sentence as the other nominees was insulting enough. Really, has the industry forgotten what music is? How does anyone expect a nation to prosper when its children are being fed Miley Cyrus and MTV?

[jindrich]

Originally Posted by asdf1234

Well said. However, I'm afraid the wonders ceased when In Rainbows didn't win Album of the Year. The fact that Radiohead's masterpiece was even mentioned in the same sentence as the other nominees was insulting enough. Really, has the industry forgotten what music is? How does anyone expect a nation to prosper when its children are being fed Miley Cyrus and MTV?

well, how many of the artists who performed at the grammys (or even those who voted) do you think know what 5/4 is?

[Tony Shepperd]

For most of you all who are complaining about the Grammy's, are you voting members of NARAS?
And if not, then why not join and try and change the system from within.

[Studio Addict]

The girl in Sugarland gave the best vocal performance, hands down.

Jennifer Hudson has pipes, but doesn't know how to control them. Just full on all the time.

Neil Diamond sounds like a belching frog.

Kid Rock had the most old school 70's musicality (my favorite) but the mix sucked.

Radiohead is BEYOOOOOOOND overrated. Do you know how easy it is to write songs with no form and no melody?

Coldplay is the rap generation's version of "music". Really nothing there.

McCartney is awesome, but he's becoming a nostalgia act.

I hate the Staples Center location. They should go back to theatres.

[ITJ]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

For most of you all who are complaining about the Grammy's, are you voting members of NARAS?
And if not, then why not join and try and change the system from within.

I am a voting member and I agree with you Tony.
Looking at the big picture, I thought the ballot was weak.

Originally Posted by smoore98

Found the info on the girl guitarist:

Biography - Orianthi Fan CLub

Also check this: Orianthi on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

[CJ1973]

So you are saying the Beatles, arguably some of the best songwriters of modern music, had a lot of 5/4 songs? ..surely its about not using the 5/4s when tempted to and still writing a catchier an awesome melody/lyric with 3 chords or so. Also, as for complications, I hate to give you the news (incase you didnt know) but Taylor Swift is the biggest selling artist last year. She went over the 3Mil mark. No matter who wins the Grammys, that girl appeals to the mass and is way too busy making money than people like us having time to talk about how much they make..lol.. so it really boils down to artistical intergrity or not having to sell one's guitar to pay next month's rent, or a combination of both.

Originally Posted by jindrich

well, how many of the artists who performed at the grammys (or even those who voted) do you think know what 5/4 is?

[MBishopSFX]

Originally Posted by jindrich

well, how many of the artists who performed at the grammys (or even those who voted) do you think know what 5/4 is?

They SHOULD know what 5/4 is: (WARNING - Shameless Self-Promotion)

About 5/4 Productions - Five/Four Productions

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by ITJ

I am a voting member and I agree with you Tony.
Looking at the big picture, I thought the ballot was weak.



Also check this: Orianthi on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

this is just sick...

YouTube - Guitar instrumental Song for Steve -Orianthi 2007

[rwhealey]

I heard a stereo mix and was pretty disappointed.

I probably should have gone downstairs and watched it in 5.1.

[Dave Reid]

'Song of the year'.

All the songs were by British artists - a small island...

Have Americans forgot how to write a song ?

[NQJason]

Rack from Grammys! Check it out!

[abtech]

Originally Posted by theblotted

this is just sick...

YouTube - Guitar instrumental Song for Steve -Orianthi 2007

There's a young lady with "all the right stuff" thumbsup

[MaTr1x2051]

Did I mis-hear Paul start to play Live and Let Die right before the commercial break? I thought for sure he started a second song while the damn sponsers or somethin' were announced, but the cut to commerical happened too fast. I have a few friends who actually won one of the awards that night (pre-telecast)... I suppose I should ask them.

[huub]

Originally Posted by HughH

Hello,



You're correct - it sounded mostly great in the broadcast truck at Grammys. Unfortunately in today's digital broadcast world the transmission chain is not that simple. Here are a few of our situations when we're doing these shows.

.....

Hugh
Denali Video audio engineer

Hmm, I do hope once 5.1 becomes a standard thing here in europe, we'll get a simultaneous stereo feed (I see no reason to not put out a simultaneous stereo mix on 7/8 of the dolby E stream, or one aes pair for E and one for stereo..
The olympics were simultaneously done 5.1 and stereo anyway..
The dolby chip downmix (and the automatic level thing) is a receipe for disaster...

huub

[Ifrit]

HughH,

Thanks!