Noise Canceling Headphones

[Sound Chaser]

I have never monitored on anything buy speakers, but I am finding the need to use headphones as I am doing more production mixing (film) and some classical recording with a compact 'fit in your car' setup. (4Trk recorder and 6 mics)

For symphonic recording especially, I find the source material makes it impossible to judge what is being recorded so I am wondering if noise canceling headphones would do the trick. Note, that while I would never mixdown a product on headphones, for capturing I am at least trying to achieve a balance.

Has anyone used these headphones in a similar working situation?
Does the outside sound actually diminish or is it hidden.
If the principle operates on cancellation, then will there be any phase issues when trying to block out sound that is nearly identical to sound you want to keep. ie: it is one thing to block out unwanted sound such as a construction site, but in this case I want to block out the same sound I am trying to record.

[John Willett]

Noise reduction headphones work by having microphones in them that listen to the surroundings and then inject it into the audio feed polarity-reversed at the same level.

You get about a 25 - 30dB reduction in bass noise and the closed-back headphones take care of the highs.

I have not actually used these in a recording situation - I use the closed HD 25-1.

[NorseHorse]

As you can tell by my avatar, I dig the Extreme Isolation brand headphones. These are noise REDUCTION headphones, not noise CANCELATION.

Also, you could buy a snake, so you aren't in the same room as the ensemble. However, even if I'm not in the same space, bringing speakers can be a hassle.

[huub]

I use bose quietcomfort II headphones for mixing in noisy surroundings.. They sound pretty nice really.. Not as flat as my HD600's but good enough to make eq decisions anyway.. Also, I use em for my Ipod, so I know how commercial mixes sound on em..

The nice thing is, I can keep the speakers on, so a client can listen to the speakers while I can make critical decisions on headphones..

[Shadow_7]

I just use a pair of closed back headphones. It blocks most of the outside noise anyway. People are always tapping my shoulder and saying, are those noise canceling. But when I pull them off my ears to listen to / answer them they're like I guess not.

My dad used to have a pair of aviator headphone like thing, but no internal speakers, just used to kill all outside noise. And they did it pretty effectively. Those with some ear buds might just be an ideal setup. They were pretty useful when trying to get to sleep in a noisy environment.

[audio ergo sum]

I still have to find someone, who has experience with those, looks like the ultimate closed headphone:
Closed Back type Earspeaker : 4070
Since you need a stax amp with it, it might not be very practical for the small setup location work.

[huub]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

I still have to find someone, who has experience with those, looks like the ultimate closed headphone:
Closed Back type Earspeaker : 4070
Since you need a stax amp with it, it might be not very practical for the small setup location work.

Wooeey, 2000 dollars ex amp... I'm intrigued though!

[feyshay]

I'd go for one of these.
Shure * - Earphones

I hardly get any external sound whatsoever from these.
And they're easily portable.
The problem is you can't hear anybody and they are so small that people do not know you have them on and think you are ignoring them.

[Liberty Studio]

I know she's an old thread... but what is the word on this? On noise canceling headphones on location environments – like recording for film/video?

It seems like it could be beneficial, but then again, I could see someone saying that the phase inversion process messes with the perception of the audio, or somehow negatively affects the monitoring, or something in that vein.

Any ideas?

[sound_music]

Originally Posted by Liberty Studio

... I could see someone saying that the phase inversion process messes with the perception of the audio, or somehow negatively affects the monitoring, or something in that vein.

i'm no expert on headphones, but this would be my apprehension about NCH's as well... seems like a thing you wouldn't want for critical listening.

[plus6vu]

Originally Posted by Sound Chaser

If the principle operates on cancellation, then will there be any phase issues when trying to block out sound that is nearly identical to sound you want to keep. ie: it is one thing to block out unwanted sound such as a construction site, but in this case I want to block out the same sound I am trying to record.

I was recording a wind ensemble a few years ago and the director had a pair that he asked me to try. Miserable failure. I think it was like you said, the phones kept trying to cancel what was trying to come through them. Really strange sound. I don't recall the brand.

Scott

[Rolo 46]

Artefacts predominate imho.

[Masaaki]

Noise cancelling headphones sound very unnatural to me, whichever the brand is (tried Bose, Phillips, Sony). I can't believe people wear them outside the airplane.

[therealbigd]

There seems to be a lot of criticism based on theory but little criticism from those that actually use them.

Until I bought some, I was doing the 'phase cancellation problems' theory, but it just doesn't exist. I've never listened to them and thought anything sounded odd.

If I could use my HD650s all the time I would. But I can't, they're big, bulky, and as isolating as a piece of tissue paper. I have some Bose QuietComfort 15s and I think they're fantastic. Flying to and fro when working in Dubai I used them on the plane a lot and they made flying so much more enjoyable. Same on the tube in London.

But sat in my room now listening in silence, they still sound good.

[Liberty Studio]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

There seems to be a lot of criticism based on theory but little criticism from those that actually use them.

Until I bought some, I was doing the 'phase cancellation problems' theory, but it just doesn't exist. I've never listened to them and thought anything sounded odd.

If I could use my HD650s all the time I would. But I can't, they're big, bulky, and as isolating as a piece of tissue paper. I have some Bose QuietComfort 15s and I think they're fantastic. Flying to and fro when working in Dubai I used them on the plane a lot and they made flying so much more enjoyable. Same on the tube in London.

But sat in my room now listening in silence, they still sound good.

Actually, I want to believe that they WOULD work.

It would be great to have a clearer idea of what all sounds are interfering with the dialog recordings when I'm out on sets; trying to discern how much I'm picking up extra sounds on the recording compared to just hearing the sound outside the earcups of my headphones.

I have no doubt they work on an airplane. I've even had a chance to try some out in this scenario before, and I liked it. Do you know if they'd be accurate or a good representation though out "in the field" in other environments?

[huub]

Yes.. i think the bose ones are good enough to make critical EQ judgements..

but they're not super sturdy..

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Liberty Studio

Actually, I want to believe that they WOULD work.

It would be great to have a clearer idea of what all sounds are interfering with the dialog recordings when I'm out on sets; trying to discern how much I'm picking up extra sounds on the recording compared to just hearing the sound outside the earcups of my headphones.

I have no doubt they work on an airplane. I've even had a chance to try some out in this scenario before, and I liked it. Do you know if they'd be accurate or a good representation though out "in the field" in other environments?

I would say no - on the grounds of wrong product for the task.

The noise cancelling deals best with ongoing sounds - the whining / droning sounds that go on and just tend to get on your nerves. If you sit at the computer and type, you won't hear such a big reduction. It's just a general noise reduction designed to allow you to listen to music at a more comfortable volume. The Bose ones do sound really nice too, but they're not designed for overcoming sound to a point you can use them for complete isolation to make judgements. Apart from anything, they don't silence ambient sound like many people expect them to, they just reduce it.

If you want isolation and accuracy to make judgements, get some HD-25s. They cost less and will do the job better. But if you want to sit on a plane for 10 hours and listen to music with great clarity and remove all the plane noise, or just sit in the lounge at home and watch TV on your laptop whilst somebody watches something else on the main TV, don't buy HD-25s. They'll give you ear fatigue and make the experience less enjoyable. Buy some nice noise cancelling headphones and enjoy.

They're very much a consumer product. Not consumer in the GS meaning of 'shite', just consumer in that there's little application for them in anything other than listening to music because you enjoy it.

[Liberty Studio]

Thanks for the insight, I think I'll follow my original feeling and stick to non-noise-canceling headphones.

As far as normal headphones though; I spent over a year using what I believe were the HD-25's out on jobs, and I hated them. The earcups swivel all the way around and always get tangled, and they're kind of a pain to put on quickly (I like a pair that you can take on/off easily with one hand). Plus one of the connections to one side just simply quit on me – while I was on location, of course.

For now I'll just stick with the ATH-M50, although they're not exactly perfect for me either.

[Rolo 46]

HD 25II s have swivelling ear piece for communication,Single cord and velour pads.
The spade connectors must be vaselined to keep the rain out.
Their iso saved my ears on many occasions and the quality is monitor pro level imho.

Bose cans would be laughable Im afraid.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Liberty Studio

Thanks for the insight, I think I'll follow my original feeling and stick to non-noise-canceling headphones.

As far as normal headphones though; I spent over a year using what I believe were the HD-25's out on jobs, and I hated them. The earcups swivel all the way around and always get tangled, and they're kind of a pain to put on quickly (I like a pair that you can take on/off easily with one hand). Plus one of the connections to one side just simply quit on me – while I was on location, of course.

Those are the cheap HD 25-SP and are *not* the professional ones.

The pro version is the HD 25-1 II or the HD 25-13 II - these have a split headband and the earcups don't rotate round and round. One earcup swivels for one-ear use, but does not rotate.

The cheap SP version has a cheap headband, like the old HD 414, and the earcups are free to rotate snd twist the cable.

The pro versions have a split headband and a single-sided cable.

The cheap SP version has a dual-sided cable and a single headband - the capsules are also down-rated and are not as good as the pro version.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Bose cans would be laughable Im afraid.

Explain?

By day I work on PMCs and Questeds in a built-for-acoustics room.

When travelling I use my Bose cans.

Can't find any 'laughable' issues myself.

I guess Bose are just one of those brands people will forever assume sound nice because of EQ curves not components. They need to wake up and realise that an EQ curve doesn't make something sound nice.

[Rolo 46]

Travelling is not monitoring
As you explained eloquently.

[Cinemascope]

The Bose Cans are only laughable if your own powers of discernment & expectation are inept

[Rolo 46]

Cans on the road take loads of stick
The issue of discernment is in the ineptitude of the Bose Design
My expectation are zero through experience
Bose 99 % marketing 1% engineering imo
The Bose Wave Guide (TM) is a cardboard tube!

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Travelling is not monitoring
As you explained eloquently.

So what your saying is, Bose are laughable when used for something they're not designed to be used for?

I think it's you who is laughable not the product.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Cans on the road take loads of stick
The issue of discernment is in the ineptitude of the Bose Design
My expectation are zero through experience
Bose 99 % marketing 1% engineering imo
The Bose Wave Guide (TM) is a cardboard tube!

How many pairs of Bose headphones do you own then? Really?

You accuse Bose of being 99% marketing, but you yourself are quite clearly swayed by hype more than actual experience. Most Bose users are happy with their purchase, but the pro audio community have, in their 'authority', decided that Bose are simply over marketed crap that sounds 'nice' more than accurate.

This is simply untrue, but as omore people believe and spread it, it takes a more authoritative stance.

As for the cardboard tube... So what? A baffle is a piece of wood, a cabinet is a wooden box, and a speaker is a piece of paper. Nothing on a speaker is space age, it's just engineered by people who understand how to make primitive products into acoustic devices.

Get over yourself and stop spreading crap you have no idea about!

[Rolo 46]

He tried to patent a cardboard tube.....
Nothing in a speaker is space age.
Tell that to SkanSpeak.
Its all engineering Dear Boy.

[therealbigd]

It does shock me to see so many people unable to accept the principle that you might actually listen to music for fun and not just for work.

[huub]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

It does shock me to see so many people unable to accept the principle that you might actually listen to music for fun and not just for work.

The Bose are really pretty nice headphones for professional use too.. They have a tiny little smile curve, but not too bad really, and the noisecancelling can be useful..

[John Willett]

Noise-cancelling headphones were first developed by Sennheiser in the mid 1980s and I still remember seeing a prototype back in 1986 with about 3U of active electronics.

They make a range from inexpensive up to Bose beaters.

Yes, I do have noise-cancelling headphones and they can be very good in certain situations.

They are great for travel in aircraft, cars, busses, trains, etc. where they cancel out the low frequency rumble.

Active noise cancellation cuts out low frequencies - you need closed sealed headphones to cut out high frequencies.

Bose headphones are pretty OK, but Bose's marketing budget is huge and this obviously has to be paid for in the price of the goods, which is why many people think they are overpriced.

But - although I use active noise reduction headphones for many things, I would not use them for any professional monitoring situation.