Upgrading main ORTF pair - Advice?

[jnorman]

I am about ready to upgrade my main ORTF pair, and could use some suggestions. in the past, i have owned DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, km184s, AKG C481s and 461s, gefell M300s, km184s, AT4051s, and many others. i am currently using AT4051s and quite like them - no real complaints at all, though they are not quite the equal of 4011s in terms of capturing fine detail and depth. i wil probably be keeping the 4051s since they do a nice job in many applications both remote and in the studio.

in light of the very high cost of trying to go back to 4011s or cmc64s (which i didnt actually like all that much), i am thinking about a pair of used KM140s, which i can probably find for around $1500/pr. while i found the km184s to be mostly unlikeable due to the high end lift no being smooth, i understand that km140s do not seem to suffer from that problem (for whatever reason).

is there any other pair of nice higher end SDC cards you might recommend over the 140s in this kind of price range for mostly chamber music type applications? thanks.

[d_fu]

If chamber music involves string quartets and the like, consider a pair of Sennheiser MKH 40 or maybe the new 8040, which I haven't tried personally. I quite like the 40 on strings, though. It also works well in somewhat wider AB-ish setups.

[hughesmr]

FYI, there is a guy selling a matched pr of 8040s (plus a high-end 2-ch snake) on the GS classifieds for $1850.... might want to jump on that...

[fifthcircle]

I'm going with 8040's over my Schoeps about 70% of the time these days. Highly recommended microphones.

If you use them, however, you MUST have good shock mounts. The huge low end on them makes them very susceptible to structure-bourne noise, or vibrations from any number of sources that come up the stand. The best mounts on the market for them currently are the Rycote Invision mounts. They'll cost you a few bucks, but it is definitely worth it.

As much as I like DPA 4011 mics, the problem with them is that they don't image from front to back that well. Left-Right is amazing, but I miss some of the depth in larger ensembles. The Sennheisers have some of the best "reach" of any mic that I've used.

--Ben

[Plush]

There is a "sprinkling of stardust" quality to the new Senn. MKH 8000 series. (8040 is cardioid)

They perform beautifully and make other Euro mic makers seem silly for asking so much more money.

We got ours from Full Compass near Madison, WI.

KM 140s are very good mics and have more bass in comparison to a 4011.

[Don S]

Another thumbsup for the 8040. I like it quite a bit as a main stereo pair. Because of the extended low range, good shocks are a must. DO NOT waste $ on the senn mounts! The Rycotes are fantastic and even fit into the case with 8040's. In comparison to the MK4, they have a more open top end, and more reach.

[Larry Elliott]

Which model Rycote Adaptors are the correct ones for the 8040?

I totally agree with all the above comments on these mikes. The overall “image” from the 8040’s is more detailed than the DPA’s.

And the price is much more realistic!

Larry

[Audiop]

INV-3 and INV-6 for the MKH8000 with XLR body. I have both but prefer INV-3 since it has the smaller and weaker lyre which makes for a lower resonance.

I have a pair of 8020 and 8040 and like them a lot.


/Peter

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Don S

Another thumbsup for the 8040. I like it quite a bit as a main stereo pair. Because of the extended low range, good shocks are a must. DO NOT waste $ on the senn mounts! The Rycotes are fantastic and even fit into the case with 8040's.

I do agree with this (even though I work for Sennheiser as the day job) - I use the Rycote InVision mounts with my own MKH 8040 (they are about half the price of the Senn. mount).

But I also use the Rycote S-series XLR tail - this is a short, tin and flexible XLR cable that goes from the mic. through the cable grip on the InVision mount. This effectively decouples the mic. and prevents handling noise being transmitted to the mic. via the cable.

[Audiop]

Sounds interesting John. Do you have a link?

I don't know how much of a problem it is but the relatively small weight of the MKH8000's invites the standard mic cable into the equation being a significant part of the moving mass and compliance. Would be better to have the mic move more freely.

Or in plain English: Some cables can worsen the performance of a shock mount by adding mass and stiffness which rasies the system resonance and makes the whole assembly less effective in reducing vibrations.

Also it's important to align the cable so that it does not distort the natural resting position of the shockmount.


/Peter

[AdamJay]

Originally Posted by jnorman

is there any other pair of nice higher end SDC cards you might recommend over the 140s in this kind of price range for mostly chamber music type applications? thanks.

Beyer mc930. amazing depth, clarity, low noise for $1000/pair.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by AdamJay

Beyer mc930. amazing depth, clarity, low noise for $1000/pair.

... or 590€ on this side

But I'm not sure that jnorman wants these, and I'm not sure what he wants as he tried so much mics (except the 8040 ?) !

JMM

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Sounds interesting John. Do you have a link?

I don't know how much of a problem it is but the relatively small weight of the MKH8000's invites the standard mic cable into the equation being a significant part of the moving mass and compliance. Would be better to have the mic move more freely.

Or in plain English: Some cables can worsen the performance of a shock mount by adding mass and stiffness which rasies the system resonance and makes the whole assembly less effective in reducing vibrations.

Also it's important to align the cable so that it does not distort the natural resting position of the shockmount.


/Peter

Look HERE.

This is what the MKH 8040 looks like in the INV-3 with S-series tail:-

[jnorman]

i'm seeing lots of support for choosing the new senn 80xx series, rather than the older standards of cmc64s, km140s, 4011s, mkh40s, etc.

since many of you have switched over to 8040s, there must be a few of you who have a pair of raggely old beat up mkh40s or km140s you want to get rid of cheap, hmmm? i'll give em a good home :-)

[newyorker42]

Online street prices from a major retailer:

8040 stereo set: $2,300.00 USD
CMC64 stereo set: $3,625.00 USD

Although I had completely decided on the Schoeps in my own thread of the same vein earlier, I have still not purchased. Now I'm starting to lean the other way. Anyway, the fun always ends AFTER I purchase something. Enjoying the contemplation time.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by jnorman

i'm seeing lots of support for choosing the new senn 80xx series, rather than the older standards of cmc64s, km140s, 4011s, mkh40s, etc.

since many of you have switched over to 8040s, there must be a few of you who have a pair of raggely old beat up mkh40s or km140s you want to get rid of cheap, hmmm? i'll give em a good home :-)

I was never really impressed enough with mkh40 in an ORTF to buy a pair. The 8040 was my first sennheiser purchase after years of using the MK4.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Just FYI I am selling a pair of barely used MKH 8040s

And I am actually looking to trade them for the older MKH 40's.
I think I am going to really really need the low-cut, so I'll sacrifice sound quality for that.

If anyone has some good quality MKH 40s let me know and maybe we can trade.


I wish I could keep the 8040s but I'm scared about the low end rumble. I record in crowds where people are jumping around and dancing, so I think that even with the Invision 3 or 6, plus a connbox and a windscreen (an expensive combo) I will still have problems with low freq noise.
And the new low cut module is MSPR $750! Street like $450ish. Jeez.

[BrianHanke]

For what it's worth, Neumann is on the record as saying there's no difference between the 140 and 184 other than slightly newer electronics in the latter, resulting in lower noise figures. The sound should be identical, or nearly so. The modularity of the 140 is potentially useful and I think accounts for the higher price compared to the 184.

Here's a link to a post on the Neumann forums saying there's no difference in sound: Archive - Re: KM 100 versus KM 184, etc

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

I wish I could keep the 8040s but I'm scared about the low end rumble. I record in crowds where people are jumping around and dancing, so I think that even with the Invision 3 or 6, plus a connbox and a windscreen (an expensive combo) I will still have problems with low freq noise.
And the new low cut module is MSPR $750! Street like $450ish. Jeez.

But you could use 8040 and cut lows in post. As long as the "rumbling" does not clip the input of the pre and AD I see no problem.



/Peter

[Denis Goekdag]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

Just FYI I am selling a pair of barely used MKH 8040s

And I am actually looking to trade them for the older MKH 40's.
I think I am going to really really need the low-cut, so I'll sacrifice sound quality for that.

If anyone has some good quality MKH 40s let me know and maybe we can trade.


I wish I could keep the 8040s but I'm scared about the low end rumble. I record in crowds where people are jumping around and dancing, so I think that even with the Invision 3 or 6, plus a connbox and a windscreen (an expensive combo) I will still have problems with low freq noise.
And the new low cut module is MSPR $750! Street like $450ish. Jeez.

You should really think about how you could maybe avoid the mics being in contact with the floor then. Hang them from a ceiling or something... no matter what mic with what mount, if there are people going to be jumping up and down close to the mic stand you'll *always* get rumble recorded.

Just got a pair of 8040s today. Unfortunately one is broken (sounds like a demodulator slightly detuned to a modulator....), but I definitely prefer the basic sound of these mics to my 40s by far. A very balanced tone that you can EQ very well --- superb raw material.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

If anyone has some good quality MKH 40s let me know and maybe we can trade.

I've got two, but I don't think I'd want to trade them... (see above)
The 8040s are just too small for my taste... I'd always be afraid of dropping them...


D.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

Fair 'nuff d_fu !

I would love to keep the 8040s I got, because I got them at a good price, and I am a kind of weak-armed boom operator (light is good), and I will be using these almost all the time inside a windscreen/blimp for wind protection AND for physical protection, and a 8040 lends itself to that in some ways better than a MKH 40.

People have a habit of waving around flags and dancing at the kind of festivals that I shoot, and I literally sometimes am waving my mic around in the air trying to avoid the erratic swipes of somebody's flag as they dance around next to me! I'll try to dig up a picture to show you what I mean ...

As far as ceiling mounts, I dunno... I end up traveling to different temples and filming/recording the programs there, and sometimes there isn't a balcony or anything, just a long rectangular room with deities in the front that the congregation sings towards. I can't install ceiling mounts every time I go to a new place, and I can't stand holding a boom right smack in the middle (cuz, you know, God's there, so people wouldn't really dig that..), so I either have to setup mic stands on either side L and R, or stand in one corner with a boom the whole time. Which is impractical and would give me a skewed stereo image..

So I dunno. Maybe I should just use MD 441's when I am in those situations, and the MKH 8040s when I am in more controlled environments. But that's more money I REALLY don't have, and I'm having trouble finding any MD 441s at a good price..

I've found someone with a pair of MKH 40s (for sale not trade) but he won't use paypal, only western union and fedex. He seems legit, but doing that is against the rules for me...

We'll see.

Still waiting for a friendly slut to trade with, we'd probably both end up being happy!

-Chris

Some photos from way back.

[Denis Goekdag]

Originally Posted by Nityananda_SCSM

So I dunno. Maybe I should just use MD 441's when I am in those situations, and the MKH 8040s when I am in more controlled environments.

thumbsup

[ljudatervinning]

Originally Posted by newyorker42

Online street prices from a major retailer:

8040 stereo set: $2,300.00 USD
CMC64 stereo set: $3,625.00 USD

I guess this price discussion is only relevant to the US.
In Europe, a set of schoeps CMC6 + MK4 is about the same price as a 8040. Difference is less than $80 in "a major" store in Germany.

[Nityananda_SCSM]

I spoke with Glen Trew at TrewAudio. Many things were discussed but basically it would appear that the MKH 8040 is definitly a lot more sensitive to wind/ground vibrations then the MKH 40 is, even using Rycote suspensions + mounts there can be problems. For most people you will be able to find a Rycote system that will work for you, but for me I think I need to sacrifice the pros/sound quality of the 8040 for the stability/it's going to work of the MKH 40, because I will be in some really windy and "vibraty" enviroments.

So a pair of MKH 40s, a pair of MD 441s, some RE50s, and a few vocal mics should do me well. I just gotta find that stuff really fast before my flight leaves.

I've made a few posts about these personal-to-me topics, so please feel free to jump in there. I should probably stop hijacking this thread tho..


And if anyone reads this and wants to trade MKH40 's for MKH 8040 's leme know!

FS: Almost New MKH 8040 pair - Will Trade for MKH 40

Sennheiser MKH 40 vs MKH 8040

Stereo Pair for Recording Bright (and Uncommon) Field Material