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#181
11th March 2009
Old 11th March 2009
  #181
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As to 110º for ORTF, the design intent was to use an angle where the centre of the sound stage (in this case 55º off axis of either of the two mics) shows a -3dB level on each of the mics in the pair. In this way the centre is appropriately represented.
I believe hyper or supercardiods used to be part of the ORTF specification, not cardioids.

If a 90º included angle were used and the mics were nominally 2.5 dB down at 45º, when L&R were summed the centre would be over-represented by 1dB, i.e., the middle would be too loud.

The correct off-axis angle for any given mic is that where the polar pattern shows -3dB at the "frequency of interest". The spacing is roughly that of the ears and produces a subtle binaural effect with headphone and is intended, I think, to produce some of the spacial ambiance of AB arrays such as the Decca Tree without risking phase problems, at least in the bass.
#182
12th March 2009
Old 12th March 2009
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
But the problem there is that the retail customer wouldn't know quality if it slammed him upside the head with a garden rake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins View Post
That's not my experience at all.

They may well not know what is behind the process, but in my experience a recording of genuine quality is appreciated by almost anyone and sounds better played back even on the lowest grade system (I'm talking clock radios).
I may have overstated the case a tad much... you're certainly right that a better quality product makes a greater impact, on any playback system however humble... the thrust of my point was that in the abstract, "sonic quality" is no kind of priority to your average consumer as opposed to "emotional quality." People will appreciate clarity, but they'll put up with endless stair-steps of murk and distortion as long as the music connects with them and moves them. They'll gravitate to it, it would really have to be almost unrecognizable before it's repellent. Does that sound like a defensible line of reasoning given your experiences?
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#183
12th March 2009
Old 12th March 2009
  #183
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Absolutely, it does! In fact one of my favorite records was (is) one of the worst sounding productions I have ever heard, yet there was a period when I pretty much had to listen to it at some point every day, just for the spirit in the performance.
This was well before I got actively involved in recording.
#184
12th March 2009
Old 12th March 2009
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
I may have overstated the case a tad much... you're certainly right that a better quality product makes a greater impact, on any playback system however humble... the thrust of my point was that in the abstract, "sonic quality" is no kind of priority to your average consumer as opposed to "emotional quality." People will appreciate clarity, but they'll put up with endless stair-steps of murk and distortion as long as the music connects with them and moves them. They'll gravitate to it, it would really have to be almost unrecognizable before it's repellent. Does that sound like a defensible line of reasoning given your experiences?
( my opinions \/ \/ )

That is absolutely true. It's probably just that classical music recording has that extra variable of it having to actually sound pretty pristine if it's a modern recording.

You can be an awesome engineer and make a fantastic, spirited, but murky recording, and not necessarily please the client...

because the classical music buying public, like it or not, is looking for clean recordings on TOP of spirited recordings... generally.

Me, I love Bruno Walter's 1938 Mahler 9.
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#185
22nd March 2009
Old 22nd March 2009
  #185
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For this job (coming up next weekend) I have received back my matched pair of RODE NT1A from the UK service dept. I have to say big respects to the 10 year warranty as they were back with me within 7 days (inc a weekend) that is decent service.

I have rehearsed my set up off site and and raring to go.

Main machine 88.2kHz and back up at 48kHz.

I will post up some files fairly soon after the recording, I am especially interested
to know how the NT1A's will perform.

I am running 2 x PR8E's (with LM4562's in them, in and out) and are putting 1 stereo
pair through each separate unit, to reduce duress on PSU and crosstalk so the 2 pre's in the unit get the full power supply to themselves.
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#186
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #186
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So here it is my first ever orchestral recording, this section had the best of the amateur musicians.

Not bad for 2 x NT1A's and SM Pro Audio PR8E preamps (£20.00 each with the new chips and all) IMO, would love critique from the classical master recordists though.

Audio as 16/44 :

YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement

Should be a photo here too !

Love some feedback.
Attached Thumbnails
Classical music recording....-first-orchestral.jpg  
#187
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #187
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You're not a rock'n'roll guy by trade are you?

The snickers and dickhead light to the left of the picture gave it away!
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#188
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #188
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Ahh the "health food" ! (also a red Bull can there)

err...... I am a jack of all trades kind of guy.

I suppose it should have been a " salmon gravd'lax buckwheat bleeny"

I am working class if that sums it up. : )

Last edited by XLR2XLR; 30th March 2009 at 07:15 PM.. Reason: add a smiley
#189
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post
I guess it's ideas like these that make Kjetil (and myself) a tad skeptical about your qualification for the job...
You could mention what kind of job this is. If it's an amateur ensemble's live recording, why not... If it's supposed to be a commercial CD, you might want to reconsider.
Oh, come the hell on.

that kind of gear snobbery is ridiculous. It aint the gear. It is the engineer and the musicians. If you think otherwise, you are, plainly stated, a fool. You might want to reconsider being such an elitist cocky jackass.

I recall Marc Aubort using a mackie something or other.. he's just a hack, though..
#190
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR View Post
So here it is my first ever orchestral recording, this section had the best of the amateur musicians.


Not bad for 2 x NT1A's and SM Pro Audio PR8E preamps (£20.00 each with the new chips and all) IMO, would love critique from the classical master recordists though.

Audio as 16/44 :

YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement
Plush and Steve are the only masters here, but that sounds really good, man. A bit dry for my tastes, but hell of a job for a 1st time! Just build on what youve learned and youll do well. the most important thing is getting the mics in the right place. From a learning standpoint,,, do yourself a favor and put on "ignore" anyone that tells you you need to spend a certain amount or use a certain brand or even level of gear. Listen to Plush, Rich Mays, David Spearitt, Steve,and youll be fine.

you probably already see who to avoid.

Oh yeah, and upgrade that mackie to FuFu's amazing presonus gadget(those arent mass market as well all know)
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#191
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #191
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Well I am glad I did it and didn't hand the job to a "pro" as advised by some.

I did learn some things, aircon was a bit noisy in the room (theatre) so no marks for "biggest dynamic range in the world" a tad optimistic I suppose.

I had no choice but to hang the mics from a truss in the end which seemed a little distant from the action, even though I paid up for a tall mic stand that came off my fee, but anyway I am quite satisfied for a first gig and would like to hear opinions. I am sure the other stand will come in handy.

I had the SP B1's wider but not angled and did not like the image so chose the NT1A matched pair as the mains, compere on a house provided AKG C452, Had I have know I would have taken something else, AKG mics (other than 414 and C12) always have this nasal phasey thing going on IMO. I would have prefered a AT4041 on voice.

Sorry OT further comments gratefully received.

Thanks for kind words Waton.

Last edited by XLR2XLR; 30th March 2009 at 10:00 PM.. Reason: bad spelling
#192
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR View Post
So here it is my first ever orchestral recording...
Thanks for sharing! I would concur with Wotan that a bit more distance/wetness would help. It would allow the instruments a bit more time and space to blend and would help prevent those front strings from being too prominent.

thumbsup
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#193
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #193
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Ok point accepted, how do you do that when there is a limitation on height
or distance (in a theatre). There is a point where practical limits come into play I think.

A truss is really in the position of a truss in tersm of distance, it is immoveable from it's resident position.

I don't now how I could have got around it's position really.
#194
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XLR2XLR View Post
Ok point accepted, how do you do that when there is a limitation on height
or distance (in a theatre). There is a point where practical limits come into play I think.

A truss is really in the position of a truss in tersm of distance, it is immoveable from it's resident position.

I don't now how I could have got around it's position really.
If you cannot get more space/height from your microphones, judicious use of a high quality reverb can do well. (I use DRE 777 from Sony but it is rather expensive) the ALTIVERB sounds good too. Also some of the impulses in SIR are quite good.

the key is picking a few responses and forcing yourself to work with them. SIR in particular has hundreds/thousands!
#195
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #195
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I would first look at using a different pattern mic and work on the mic angle.
#196
30th March 2009
Old 30th March 2009
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotan View Post
Oh, come the hell on. that kind of gear snobbery is ridiculous. It aint the gear. It is the engineer and the musicians. If you think otherwise, you are, plainly stated, a fool. You might want to reconsider being such an elitist cocky jackass.
Thanks for your friendly words, and excuse me if I refrain from welcoming you to this board. Besides your manners, you need to seriously improve your reading skills. My comment had nothing to do with gear.

And the resulting recording, well... It sounds like a couple of mics just placed somewhere...
#197
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #197
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inre:
"Plush and Steve are the only masters here..."

ouch! i think ben maas is right up there with anybody. and there are several other folks here who take this stuff VERY seriously.

and, i dont think joel overstated the quality thing at all - most people are hardly cognizant of quality - all they generally hear (or care about) is themselves, and cant hear (and dont care about) the difference between any kind of mics or preamps or anything. that's why we have engineers and producers, because we DO care, and we CAN hear the difference, and we take the time and effort to try and make everything we do sound as good as we possibly can.
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#198
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm View Post
I would first look at using a different pattern mic and work on the mic angle.

See, Mr. Klaukholm offered helpful, good advice in a manner that was polite. He actually has credentials and knows how to address others.

This is good stuff. The new guys need older guys with experience to help them along. This is where the board could be of benefit..unfortunately far too often cocky know-nothings pollute the atmosphere.
#199
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #199
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Mr. Maas is young, therefore he cannot be a master. I also mentioned that there were many others whom I admire. (in another post) Mastery of something takes a lifetime, though it appears there are some misinformed, misguided young bucks who think they have all the answers. Laughable.
anyway,
I offer this

the difference between one well designed amp and another is hardly as obvious as we have been conditioned to believe. This school of "night and day" "veils lifted" thought is rampant in audiophile circles, where placebo effect is widespread.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
inre:
"Plush and Steve are the only masters here..."

ouch! i think ben maas is right up there with anybody. and there are several other folks here who take this stuff VERY seriously.

and, i dont think joel overstated the quality thing at all - most people are hardly cognizant of quality - all they generally hear (or care about) is themselves, and cant hear (and dont care about) the difference between any kind of mics or preamps or anything. that's why we have engineers and producers, because we DO care, and we CAN hear the difference, and we take the time and effort to try and make everything we do sound as good as we possibly can.
#200
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #200
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I'll try not to take offense at your comments Mr. Wotan. I may not be as old as Plush, but that doesn't mean I have any less ability and I'm certainly not lacking in experience. Under normal circumstances I would have a few less than pleasant words for you, but because we try to keep this forum professional, I will refrain. Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're an idiot rather than open it and prove it. There are a lot of very accomplished professional engineers here and you're doing nothing but insulting them. I'd suggest an appology- not just to me but to all the others here.

Now- to XLR... Your recording is good for a first time out, but you certainly have room for improvement. To me, I am hearing a couple of things-

1. The image is not very concise. I'm not sure what mic technique you used, but to me, it seems rather "monoish." I hear left and right, but there isn't much spread- even for a single pair recording. If you were going ORTF-ish, try increasing the angle a bit.

2. Distance- it seems very close to your performers. Don't wory about the distance as it relates to the tape measure. Use your ears. If you get some more distance, you'll get a bit more of a 3 dimensional sound with more of a sense of depth in that important front to back image.

3. Tonality. I am hearing a very mid-range heavy recording... I'm not sure why. The Rode Mics have a rising top end, but I don't remember them as being this heavy in the mids. Perhaps it is related to the positioning in the room. Some distance may help that as well.

As I said it is a good start... Now, use what you've learned on this one and improve for your next gig. The day you stop learning is the day you may as well quit what you are doing...

--Ben
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#201
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #201
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Check the new production from my mentor, Teije van Geest.

ECM Records--Arvo Part: In Principio

One can only dream of obtaining the pick-up and sound done by this master.

This is currently the biggest record in the world.

The sound-oh my root!---mindblowing.
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#202
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #202
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wotan is here!

A gunman walks into a wild west town (Gearslutzville).

Shooting fast and furious at the old hands he proclaims loudly that HE is the new law in town - so listen up and don't cross him, or you're dead.

I love this kind of drama! One of my" great" relatives was a Wild West celebrity who did it with real guns and lived to tell the stories.

It's obvious that you're good at making a dramatic entrance and raising lots of dust. I think it fair to ask why anyone should give you the time of day? If you are half as good at audio as you are at typing dramatic assertions about yourself and others, I'm all ears. Otherwise, it's time to get some popcorn and enjoy the show.
#203
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #203
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I vote there is no show.

let the meteor shoot by. no harm.
#204
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #204
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Exclamation No cred without credentials? I beg to differ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotan View Post
...He actually has credentials and knows how to address others.
Wotan: If you're concerned about credentials and experience, please post under your real name or include a website in your signature. I don't mean to be antagonistic - it's a serious concern which you have already demonstrated concern for in your own comments. You can read discussion on the subject here: A suggested improvement for this forum

Current Events PS. I saw the "meteor" last night as I was driving down I-64 from Charlottesville!
#205
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Check the new production from my mentor, Teije van Geest.

ECM Records--Arvo Part: In Principio

One can only dream of obtaining the pick-up and sound done by this master.

This is currently the biggest record in the world.

The sound-oh my root!---mindblowing.
Wow... pretty impressive. I've always liked the ECM recordings of Part's music. Do you know if this one was done in that same stone church in Estonia that a number of the others were done in? The Te Deum recording is to this day still one of my favorites out there.

--Ben
#206
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Check the new production from my mentor, Teije van Geest.

ECM Records--Arvo Part: In Principio

One can only dream of obtaining the pick-up and sound done by this master.

This is currently the biggest record in the world.

The sound-oh my root!---mindblowing.
Yes, Mr. Van Geest is amazing. Truly a legend.

Ive had that disk for a week now. Balls out!
#207
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Check the new production from my mentor, Teije van Geest.
I appreciate the tip and I'll get it. I share a religious tradition with Part and Taverner. Deep threads run there. I can't wait to hear this rendering.
#208
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
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Quote:
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I think it fair to ask why anyone should give you the time of day?
you don't have to do anything. you can ignore me if you wish.

the ones that were meant to hear, heard. Desired response.

Ego is a powerful , powerful thing. Refuses to die.
#209
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
  #209
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The problem with you Wotan is you are taking great joy in insulting people here and you don't have the balls to sign your own posts. If you're so ****ing special, at least have the guts to sign your post. Otherwise you are just a coward.

The remote forum has largely avoided the B.S. that infects the rest of the forums out there. You are single-handedly trying to change that. Grow up or go away.

--Ben
#210
31st March 2009
Old 31st March 2009
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