Safest safety plan for Alesis HD24?

[XLR2XLR]

1 x UPS, 2 HD24 both on same UPS outputs.

Anyone had a UPS break on them? (Am I being paranoid?)

1)I am wondering should I run one HD24 on a UPS and one direct from the mains?

2)I wonder if I should pre-record on one machine ( the direct mains driven) in case
the power goes and I can save what is there.

Also HD24 is not quite as robust as I thought in high SPL environments something about mid range high SPL causing drop outs.

Yes, getting a bit paranoid I think, but still want to run it by you chaps.

[t_chance]

I would run them on the same ups. If you're that worried maybe get a dat rig for backup. there must be some Tascam DA 78's or 98's floating around.

[bishopthomas]

The issue with high SPL situations is that the caddies vibrate loose and cause the machine to freeze. Put a rubber washer between the caddy and the SCSI connector (effectively extending the connector) and it will seat more properly.

[Remoteness]

The Bishop of Thomas is spot on with regard to the rubber (or plastic) washer trick.

It should be done to all your caddies before they fail you.

This never happened to us, but we made the change anyway.

As they say, "better safe than sorry".

Furthermore, if placing two HD24s on one UPS isn't good enough for you consider having two UPS'; one for each recorder, but make sure they are true sine wave devices. In any event, don't run them without a proper UPS.

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

The issue with high SPL situations is that the caddies vibrate loose and cause the machine to freeze. Put a rubber washer between the caddy and the SCSI connector (effectively extending the connector) and it will seat more properly.

Any chance you could explain where the washer goes a little better??

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by talbe1019

Any chance you could explain where the washer goes a little better??

The idea is to extend the connector on the caddy just a bit so it guarantees the proper connector mating with the HD24.

I hope this helped.

[t_chance]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The idea is to extend the connector on the caddy just a bit so it guarantees the proper connector mating with the HD24.

I hope this helped.

Wouldn't it make more sense to shim out the connector inside the HD24 than mess with all the caddies?

I have never had a problem with a caddy undocking, but have had a the power cable come off of the back of my HD24 from dancers on a bouncy stage. The ups didn't help in that case. A couple of inches of foam underneath your unit, or a shock-mounted case will be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Furthermore, if placing two HD24s on one UPS isn't good enough for you consider having two UPS'; one for each recorder, but make sure they are true sine wave devices. In any event, don't run them without a proper UPS.

Good point, Double redundant at all times.

[bishopthomas]

Look at the SCSI connector on the back of the caddy. It is held on by two screws. Remove those screws and while putting it back together place a washer on the screw so that it is between the connector and the caddy chassis. Do this on both screws and it will cause the connector to extend past the caddy more than previously. This will create a better connection inside the HD24. I wish I had taken pictures when I had mine, as it's much easier to show than to describe. Let me know if you have any more questions and I'll try to be more vague.

[loujudson]

Much good knowledge can be had on HD24@yahoogroups.com. They have discovered it is not the washers but the drives in the caddies that causes the drop out of record thing - the vibrating drive canot keep up and it stops. Washers keep it from coming loose but do not cure the stopping problem. Neither does the foam or shock cases. The drive needs to be isolated to fix it, see the yahoogoroup for specifics and ongoing research.

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
hd24 : HD24

Best wisdom is there! Some people use 2.5" laptop drives mounted in rubber with an adaptor card, and others are experiementing to find SATA drive solutions.

I do not do loud music so have never had the problem...

Lou

[t_chance]

I too don't do much LOUD music, and have not had the problems. I also have never screwed my drives to the caddies. I don't know if that would make any difference.

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Look at the SCSI connector on the back of the caddy. It is held on by two screws. Remove those screws and while putting it back together place a washer on the screw so that it is between the connector and the caddy chassis. Do this on both screws and it will cause the connector to extend past the caddy more than previously. This will create a better connection inside the HD24. I wish I had taken pictures when I had mine, as it's much easier to show than to describe. Let me know if you have any more questions and I'll try to be more vague.

I got it...thanks...

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by t_chance

I too don't do much LOUD music, and have not had the problems. I also have never screwed my drives to the caddies. I don't know if that would make any difference.

I would not leave them unscrewed - seems to me it would make vibration more of a problem, unless you put some rubber shims instead of screws. Don't know really.

L

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Much good knowledge can be had on HD24@yahoogroups.com. They have discovered it is not the washers but the drives in the caddies that causes the drop out of record thing - the vibrating drive canot keep up and it stops. Washers keep it from coming loose but do not cure the stopping problem. Neither does the foam or shock cases. The drive needs to be isolated to fix it, see the yahoogoroup for specifics and ongoing research.

Interesting. I haven't been keeping up with the Yahoo group. I do know that it seemed to cure my problems when I did the washer mod, though. Maybe the problem is two-fold, but I definitely had better results with the washers in place. I'll have to go read up on this, but if there are still issues then it might mean that I will be staying away from the HD24 when I build my rig again.

[LX3]

I can confirm what Lou's saying - the "washer mod" is not the be-all-end-all fix for the HD24.

Although it's worth doing just from a "feel" point of view, let me say that my modded caddies still drop out. The evidence suggests to me that vibration affects the write performance of the drives themselves, which throws the HD24 off, but who knows, maybe it really is the connectors, and the washer mod only partially helps. I'm keeping an open mind.

I'm still working on a reliable fix. I have 2.5" drives in two of my caddies, shock-mounted into the caddy. They still drop out. It's very unpredictable. Sometimes a 3.5" drive is more reliable, sometimes the 2.5.

Upside to the 3.5" drives - faster data rate, which means when vibration problems arise, it can empty the record buffer faster, so it takes longer before the recording fails.

Upside to the 2.5" drives - better shock resistance specs, by a big margin. So in theory, vibration causes less errors on 2.5" drives.

I'm still working on it... next plan is a new way of shock-mounting the 2.5" drives. But the only reliable solution (so far) is not to use HD24s. Which is sad, because there are very few (no) alternatives at that price point.

Can anyone do me a deal on a couple of Radar Nyquists? Seriously!

[bishopthomas]

What about using solid state drives? I may be way off as I know almost nothing about these new drives, but if they would work in the HD24 that might ease our worries.

[loujudson]

Paul wrote: "But the only reliable solution (so far) is not to use HD24s. Which is sad, because there are very few (no) alternatives at that price point."

Yes there is - move the HD24 away from the noise! I am an independent recording engineer, not some musician trying to record from he stage (a bad idea all around!) and if it is loud enough to cause problems with the machine at FoH then your music is just too loud! (I'm an acoustic music guy, don't you know...).

The nearest similar machine costs about twice as much, so people are working on the problem!

L

[LX3]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Paul wrote: "But the only reliable solution (so far) is not to use HD24s. Which is sad, because there are very few (no) alternatives at that price point."

Yes there is - move the HD24 away from the noise!

I am an independent recording engineer, not some musician trying to record from he stage (a bad idea all around!) and if it is loud enough to cause problems with the machine at FoH then your music is just too loud! (I'm an acoustic music guy, don't you know...).

Hey Lou, you know me... It's "Paul" that recently left the HD24 YahooGroup. I run a commercial mobile recording company. So it's not my music, and certainly not for me to tell the band how loud to play. e.g. King's X last week!

As for moving further away from the noise, when I can, I do, but more often than not it's impossible. A lot of the venues I record in are clubs, and there's absolutely no escape (short of a truck... which usually isn't possible either). Before anyone suggests finding a "spare room", you should visit some of these London venues. At one well-known venue we tried everything, and the only solution was to put half the rig on the side of the stage!

The nearest similar machine costs about twice as much

Which machine did you have in mind there?

...so people are working on the problem!

As I'm sure you know, "people" includes me What happened to the guy who filled his HD24 up with expanding foam? That was pretty funny.

I'd be as happy to quit looking for a solution and swap my HD24XRs for something that doesn't exhibit the problem in the first place... Hence my continuing interest in Radar. I like the HD24 a lot, but at the end of the day, it's about getting the job done more than loyalty to a particular product.

[ebulb]

Has anyone tried one of these in the HD24 to stop the vibration issues ?

SD Flash Memory to IDE Adapter as Hard Disk (factory) - eBay (item 310088864178 end time Mar-01-09 00:42:36 PST)

[LX3]

As far as I'm aware, up to now, the people that have tried using flash memory in the HD24 (either as IDE flash drives, or compact flash cards with an adaptor) have not had any luck.

I couldn't tell you why... the HD24 just doesn't seem to like them.

It would be great though, wouldn't it? If someone could get a solid state drive solution working, HD24 users - myself included - would be all over it.

[ebulb]

Is the drop out thing definately related to SPL ? Or are people just guessing ? I wonder if it can be consistently reproduced, cause it could be some power fluctuation or something also??

If it does seem like an SPL issue have Alesis recognised the problem ? If so have they made any suggestions ? If they are aware then id expect any problem with flash memory could be overcome with a firmware update... Which would hopefully solve the problem... Although i do wonder if a flash card has the speed to record 24 tracks ?

Also this might be obvious, but if its just SPL levels that create drop outs, couldnt that be easily solved with some shock absorbing material underneath the unit ? Or around it in the roadcase ? I would image the issue with SPL manifests itself with vibration off the surface the unit sits on and not via the air pressure in the room ??? Im left thinking if you set the unit up on some shock absorbing material, it should behave like it sitting on a normal surface ?? Like in a studio ?

Also im curious what situation people have had drop outs in ? I dont think its unreasonable to expect to be able to record right next to a drum kit in a room or bass amp etc... You shouldnt need the recorder to be in another room, if its too sensitive under those conditions id say Alesis have short changed people a bit..

The one time i recall i had a drop out im not sure why it happened but i was set up near FOH and after the show realised i lost about 10 minutes off the end of the gig.. I really dont know why it happen but maybe its related to an SPL thing, either way it made me loose a bit of faith in the unit cause you dont get second chances at live gigs, it needs to work all the time!!

[LX3]

Originally Posted by ebulb

Is the drop out thing definately related to SPL ?

Yes.

I wonder if it can be consistently reproduced, cause it could be some power fluctuation or something also??

I'd love to put together a rig that would reliably reproduce the problem... I just don't own any PA gear that will go loud enough. But when the planets align properly, I'll get to work on it.

I also wondered whether it might be power fluctuation, but I've ruled that out since upgrading my online UPS.

If it does seem like an SPL issue have Alesis recognised the problem ? If so have they made any suggestions ? If they are aware then id expect any problem with flash memory could be overcome with a firmware update... Which would hopefully solve the problem... Although i do wonder if a flash card has the speed to record 24 tracks ?

Since the change of ownership at Alesis, the company appear to have lost interest in the HD24 (although they're happy to keep selling them!). There haven't been any updates in years, and IIRC, the development team behind the unit have moved on, so I'm not sure the expertise to update the OS even still exists at Alesis.

Also this might be obvious, but if its just SPL levels that create drop outs, couldnt that be easily solved with some shock absorbing material underneath the unit ?

Placing the unit on a layer of foam does help. But I know people that have their HD24s in shock-mount rack cases, and they still drop out. It's just one of those things - you think you've found a fix, then a situation will occur and you discover that your fix didn't fix things as much as you thought it had.

I have two of my drive mechanisms shock-mounted inside the caddies, and it doesn't help all that much.

It is of course possible that it's not the drive at all, and it's something else vibrating and causing the issue. Caddy connector maybe...? I'm ruling nothing out except things that I've proven to my own satisfaction are NOT the cause (e.g. line voltage).

Also im curious what situation people have had drop outs in ? I dont think its unreasonable to expect to be able to record right next to a drum kit in a room or bass amp etc... You shouldnt need the recorder to be in another room, if its too sensitive under those conditions id say Alesis have short changed people a bit..

Actually, it often seems to be more about midrange frequencies than bass. Distorted guitars seem to be the main culprits. I had one of mine repeatedly drop out during a soundcheck... only when the guitar player was going at it though. Seemed to handle any amount of bass, but as soon as the guitarist played... boom!

I can tell you that extreme low frequency impacts do not disturb the HD24 at all. I put one of mine in an SKB case, put it into record, and literally bounced it on the floor for five minutes, and it only dropped out when the caddy eventually fell out of the machine (and when that happens it fails in a different way to what you see in high SPL dropouts)

The one time i recall i had a drop out im not sure why it happened but i was set up near FOH and after the show realised i lost about 10 minutes off the end of the gig.. I really dont know why it happen but maybe its related to an SPL thing

very probably

either way it made me loose a bit of faith in the unit cause you dont get second chances at live gigs, it needs to work all the time!!

Exactly. I'm very careful what kind of recording device I select for what gig, and I almost never rely on HD24s alone.

Shame, because the XR sounds GREAT when it's working... which is most of the time. But as you say, in this game you need your recorders to work all of the time.

[HD24Rocker]

Hey Paul, I think I may have found a fix that works for me, log back onto the yahoo HD24 forum for further info.

Worked same place, same SPL and no drop outs on 2 x HD24's !

Cannot guarantee absolute failure proof but it's very promising.

[LX3]

Hey yes, thanks, interesting.

That's a theory I had kicking about that I was going to work on at some point... that there's some part of the HD24 chassis that resonates, and helps conduct nasty vibrations to the drives. So I imagined damping the insides of the HD24 could theoretically help... assuming I could figure out what bit was resonating.

Looks like you beat me to it . Sweet. You could share your Flickr page on this thread maybe?

I'm still hoping to build a test rig and do some experiments... just to keep all other factors equal.

[Remoteness]

Is there any reason why you cannot share this information with us?

There are plenty of Remotesters in this group that would love to hear about those findings.

Originally Posted by HD24Rocker

Hey Paul, I think I may have found a fix that works for me, log back onto the yahoo HD24 forum for further info.

Worked same place, same SPL and no drop outs on 2 x HD24's !

Cannot guarantee absolute failure proof but it's very promising.

[ebulb]

id like to know also... i went over to the HD24 group but didnt see anything ?

[E-Murder]

I use the HD24's a lot for remote recording and I have them mounted in a floating/suspended shock rack, like a Gator G-Tour Shock Rack.

From years on the road recording, I have only had one of my HD24's stop recording and luckily I was watching it when it happened and quickly hit record again so I only lost a couple seconds of recording of the concert.

I would say this may have been because of floor rattling near the stage as mentioned in this thread, but I have been in situations where the rattling was much worse and I think because of the Shock Rack I have them in, I wasn't as exposed to this issue as some have been. I never did any mod's to the caddies or anything like that.

Also, plug in AC to where ever the house mixing desk or monitor mixing desk is located with your APC in tow, if the power goes down, the house/monitor board will also go down so you will have at least enough time to hit "stop".

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Is there any reason why you cannot share this information with us?

There are plenty of Remotesters in this group that would love to hear about those findings.

From HD24rocker on the Yahoo group:

A quick recap, I had a recording drop out a few months back and the issue seemed to be related to high SPL, many know about it here.

Well I did this mod....

HD24 Inside diagonal on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

and since then as I was confident I could resolve this issue I
purchased an HD24XR too. I have not done the same mod above but the
unit is in a rack that has foam under the unit itself.

So as well as the above mod using Quiet PC foam lining on the casing
(inside and out) and a diagonal to reduce standing waves I did the
rubber washer jobby on the caddy (but I used 2 washers, one in front
and behind the back plate of the drive connector. I also floated the
drives on double sided foam backed tape, I mounted the HD24 on
Sorbothane strips I/O rack mounted bolts and also added foam to float
the machine from the rack mount case (ABS plastic)

The other discovery (and due credit to Paul Hurt for this one) is that
if you pre record on an HD24 the hard drive overhead goes through the
roof, 24 tracks pre recorded (i.e. to save the files in a power
outage) greatly increases the disk activities red light illumination.
Scarily so........ SO DO NOT PRE RECORD UNLESS YOU WANT TO SEE LOTS OF
RED LIGHT ACTIVITY !!!!!!!!! I tested it during the support act, thats
what they are there for : )

This alone must have a very large impact on the drop outs ocurring.

This time same venue roughly the same SPL and I did not have any drops
outs and the machines both worked perfectly. I also happen to believe
it's bass related and not mid range, but thats just my observation
with extended low notes making the disk light go red permanently when
pre recording has been done.

I am once again a happy HD24 user !

I hope this is of help to people who have experienced these problems.

I was using a 160GB Barracuda in my HD24 (old one with the most mods
foam, diagonal etc) and a WD Caviar 80GB shipped with the HD24XR.

It's post #17618 on the HD24 forum.

Cheers,
--
Don

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by E-Murder

I use the HD24's a lot for remote recording and I have them mounted in a floating/suspended shock rack, like a Gator G-Tour Shock Rack.

From years on the road recording, I have only had one of my HD24's stop recording and luckily I was watching it when it happened and quickly hit record again so I only lost a couple seconds of recording of the concert.

People on the HD24yahoogroup have had it happen with or without shock racks. It seems to be an internal resonance, not neccessarily the case rattling...

L

[ebulb]

maybe you could test the resonance theory by taking the lid off it while recording ? You could still have it screwed into the rack but without the lid might be a good way to test

[pulse_divider]

Couldn't you just get one of those amp risers with the foam blocks on the bottom and throw your whole rack on top of it? This would probably help decouple it from the vibrations.