JoeCo BlackBox 24track Recorder

[Koed]

Just found this on SonicState NAMM report:

A 1U 19'inch Sadie 24 track recorder that uses standard usb2 drives.
Wow.

Sonic State - News WNAMM09: Blackbox Recorder, A multi-track capturing device from the man behind SADiE

[TRW]

Not sure if this will be at Nam, but if so can anyone find out if its analog or digital in?

I really like the idea of this product. Nice work Prism/Sadie

Cheers T

[fifthcircle]

Holy $h!t... This totally fits a major need in the remote market. And one rack space it looks like too.

Looks like you'll be able to get digital I/O for it. I'll be at NAMM tomorrow so I'll try to find it.

JoeCo Home

--Ben

[Koed]

There are options for 24 ADAT i/o, AES i/o and Ethernet.


There's also an option for balanced analog i/o, which suggests the standard i/o is not.

[matt thomas]

JoeCo BlackBox Recorder Specs




Connections and Specifications


Rear Panel Connectors

Analogue i/o

3 x 25 way Male D-type supplied with 2m looms to 1/4" stereo TRS jacks (for mixer insert points - tip send, ring return)

(Loop through outputs)

8 x 1/4" stereo TRS jack sockets (Ch 17-24 only: tip send, ring return)

Monitoring

1 x 1/4" stereo TRS jack socket: Headphone output

Control and Synchronisation

1 x 1/4" TRS jack socket: Linear Time Code / Footswitch
1 x 5-pin DIN: MIDI Time code (MTC)
1 x 9-pin Male D-type: SONY PII protocol
2 x RCA sockets: AES/SPDIF word clock + communications to auxiliary units

Other Connectors

1 x USB2 (480Mb/S) interface to disk drive
1 x mini DIN: PS2 keyboard socket
1 x 2.5mm dc inlet (7.5Vdc power) - power adapter supplied


Specifications

Sample Rates supported:

44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz & 96kHz

Analogue Inputs

levels: -10dB / +4dB switchable
Max input level: +20dBU = 0dBFS
A-D conversion: 24 bit, 96kHz
106dB S/N; 96dB THD+N (typical A-weighted 48kHz)

Timecode

Frame Rates: 24,25,29.97 drop and non-drop, 30 fps

Analogue Outputs

levels: -10dB / +4dB switchable
Max output level: +20dBU = 0dBFS
D-A conversion: 24 bit / 96kHz
106dB S/N; 94dB THD+N (typical A-weighted 48kHz

Physical

19" rack mountable - 1U high
Dimensions: 425mm x 150mm x 44.4mm
Weight: 1.3kg
dc input: 7.5V - 12V
Power consumption: <25W





narco

[sonicdefault]

Whoa! That's awesome!


I wonder how much it will cost.


-SD

[mark.james]

Originally Posted by sonicdefault

I wonder how much it will cost.

me too... this looks too good to be true

[Jeff D.]

I talked to the guy and he wasn't set on the price yet, but was thinking around $2500 USD.

It looked good, although it's not available right away... he estimated 3 months.

The combo timecode input / footswitch jack seems a little odd!

Jeff D.

[joeshambro]

i got a tour of the blackbox today, and it's not a bad piece of gear. definitely built well. the interface is really nice, and the front of the box has no moveable parts -- it's all touch-sensitive.

the d-sub connectors fan out to insert extraction cables, which you can plug into either inserts (the way it's wired, it won't interrupt your signal as plugging a standard 1/4" cable into an insert jack will do), or, i'm sure, into your pre-fader direct outs if your board has them.

he said they should have review units available in march, and i'm in line to get one.

[soundrick]

Looks cool, however I'm surprised no one has complained about it being unbalanced??

I guess I'll be the first.

[fifthcircle]

There will be an optional "balancing box" that you can purchase for it. It will not change the nature of the I/O, but rather it is an add-on (I'd assume transformers, but I didn't ask). Digial I/O will follow a few months down the road and multiple boxes can be chained with sample accuracy through subcode on the SPDIF I/O.

Converters inside are based on AKM chips. Not great, but not horrible either...

Street is expected to be about $2500 base and a few hundred bucks for each add-on feature (ie digital cards, etc...).

--Ben

[theblotted]

hmm... interesting. could definitely use this for redundant backup. i like the fact that it's small footprint.

a few questions that i'll have them answered @ NAMM tomorrow -

-24/96 @ 24 tracks fast enough for USB2?
-possible to have USB in the front? i guess a hub will work.. but when doing 90 tracks plus, that's a lot of hubs.
-how does ethernet audio i/o work?

[godcity]

looks very cool.
on the back panel it says "analog i/o" but isn't it really just "analog i" where's the "o?"
i realize its just a recorder, but it would be cool if it could also function as a surrogate tape machine or had a way to make rough mixes on the road.

[fifthcircle]

The I/O is like a standard unbalanced insert cable. Tip send, ring return, common ground. They will be selling a ballancing box that will allow it to work in a more traditional fashion.

--Ben

[soundrick]

So, if the converters are "just OK", and it's basically unbalanced, without some kind of Rube Goldberg, balancing signal chain.........What makes this a better choice than the less-expensive, more functional Alesis XR24?? Besides the smaller footprint??

[theblotted]

alright, i managed to catch Joe Bull towards the end today, and got some answers:

-not shipping until April, but some demo will go out in March
-Digital I/O (or "I") won't be out until sometime July
-they're still not sure what to do with the Ethernet port. his answer was, "you ask 50 ppl, you get 50 answers!" ...er.....
-reason for LTC and footswitch is due to space. they figured ppl who're using LTC will most likely not use the footswitch, vice versa. go figure.
-apparently they've done 96 tracks of 96/24 via USB2 easily on a SADIE system. so... USB2.0 should work fine... (480mbps non-continuous through-put... i sure hope so).
-no plans for WC, because AES/SPDIF connector in the back is sufficient. since the AES/SPDIF doesn't really carry audio info, should be ok... (?)
-you can cascade one unit to the next, so if you hit record on one, it'll start the next one, so forth
-you can connect a keyboard to the 9pin so you can name the tracks. otherwise it's 00-01, 00-02, etc. till 24. this box prob works best as an expensive redundant unit.
-no plans for USB connector in the front, so it won't mess with the "nice design" of the front panel. it's recommended to use a hub.


that's all. i hope it's worth the wait and the dough. the front panel sure looks sexy as hell in person though.

[Jam]

Originally Posted by soundrick

So, if the converters are "just OK", and it's basically unbalanced, without some kind of Rube Goldberg, balancing signal chain.........What makes this a better choice than the less-expensive, more functional Alesis XR24?? Besides the smaller footprint??

From my point of view, the ability to sync to time code.

James

[mmcfarlane]

It looks sexy, but compared to a Alesis HD24XR and this new boxes suggested price point it kind of makes me wonder what the target market is. Don't forget to figure the cost of racking a USB harddisk for this system.

The XR includes a hard disk (caddies and slots for 2), includes 24 ADAT I/O and analog I/O with decent converters (further upgradable 3rd party), appears to have higher resolution metering from the picture, has a zillion programmable functions from the font panel, and has a track record (personal) of being very robust and reliable. The think just works as advertised...

The only downside on the XR is you need the fireport ($200ish) to copy data to a DAW because the built in ftp server is too damn slow

Hopefully I'm missing a bunch of cool features in this new box.

[thebri]

Originally Posted by Jam

From my point of view, the ability to sync to time code.

James

TC is a biggie for me. So is saving rack space. AFAIK, this unit is the only 1U 24 track with TC. I would consider the Alesis if it only had TC. I might have to go with a Tascam 2424 if this new box can't cut it, or ship in time.

Are there 1U rack mounted USB drives available?

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by thebri

Are there 1U rack mounted USB drives available?

i think Glyph makes them, but not sure. they're flimsy anyway, due to moving parts of the HD.

if anything, SSD will be the future for mobile rigs w/ no moving parts.

[thebri]

Originally Posted by theblotted

i think Glyph makes them, but not sure. they're flimsy anyway, due to moving parts of the HD.

if anything, SSD will be the future for mobile rigs w/ no moving parts.

I'm SSD will be, but all of the mobile recording devices used HD still. 2 years from now it could all be different. Nagra, SD, Cantor I'm sure will be on the cutting edge of that before a rack mounted Multi track.

Anyway, Glyph doesn't have a USB rack drive, only FW. Anyone else?

[musikwerks]

I'm skeptical of USB's ability to do 96khz. As I understand it USB is bursts of data whereas firewire is a constant stream. There's no way I would trust a live recording to a USB device.

[pjplayer]

just get a load of 32GB USB keys, sorted.

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by musikwerks

I'm skeptical of USB's ability to do 96khz. As I understand it USB is bursts of data whereas firewire is a constant stream. There's no way I would trust a live recording to a USB device.

i too was skeptical also, but after talking to the man himself (guy behind SaDie), he said that he wouldn't make a product if it didn't support the spec's.

i guess there's only one way to find out.

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by Jam

From my point of view, the ability to sync to time code.

James

Well, I guess if you can't figure out how to sync to time code with the Alesis for 1grand less, then feel free to pull the trigger.

thumbsup

[julian.david]

Originally Posted by soundrick

So, if the converters are "just OK", and it's basically unbalanced, without some kind of Rube Goldberg, balancing signal chain.........What makes this a better choice than the less-expensive, more functional Alesis XR24?? Besides the smaller footprint??

To me the most important advantages of the Blackbox over an Alesis HD24 is the file format and it's small footprint. I really like the fact that I don't have to waste time with the file conversion and that the meta data and timecode just get written into the BWF-file. I also like the fact, that you can hook up a keyboard for labeling which is much faster than using the clumsy locator/song labeling functionality of the HD24 (Also, you can't label tracks on the HD24). On the other hand, I agree that you do have to pay a lot more to get 24 tracks of recording...

[Jam]

Originally Posted by soundrick

Well, I guess if you can't figure out how to sync to time code with the Alesis for 1grand less, then feel free to pull the trigger.

thumbsup

Hi Soundrick

The first thing I said in my post was " from my point of view " and I'll continue in that spirit. The combination of smaller size, native BWF and inbuilt sync add up for me. I attempted a genuine answer to your, I assumed, genuine question, now it may be the distortion effect of the internet but your response seems laced with sarcasm.

If it wasn't your intention to be sarcastic or patronising, I unreservedly apologise.

I can work out how to get the Alesis to sync to TC for less than a $1000.00 but it's kind of you to point out the possibility.

Is there a way of syncing to TC and getting "time stamped" files out of the HD24 for less than $1000.00 without an extra work stage ? Because that would be brilliant.

We've had an HD24 on the "firm" for a year or so and it's a very capable machine but perhaps not all things to all men. From my lowly and completely subjective point of view, I have yet to see any product that is.

The combination of inbuilt TC, size and native BWF, has piqued my interest. I can imagine over the life of the product, say five years, the time saving in workflow and excess baggage fees when flying could well exceed the $1000.00 saving you mentioned.

That said, I don't for a second imagine that would be the same for everyone else.

I'm not quite ready to "pull the trigger" yet, I'll wait for a bit more feedback on sound quality and reliability. Then hire one in to try before I make my final judgement but it's been added to my "watch list".

James

[mmcfarlane]

Originally Posted by thebri

...this unit is the only 1U 24 track ...

+1U for the harddisk, if you can find a 1U USB harddisk.

I do really like the idea of a 32GB USB memory stick, just be forewarned that not all memory sticks perform at an optimum speed.

For the guy that saiid he didn't like the format transfer time from the Alesis, the reformatting for me is free becuase it happens when I transfer my files to my workstation. If you wanted to mix directly from an external USB device then having .wav files or something similar would save the transfer time.

FWIW, with the Alesis fireport it takes about 30 minutes to transfer 3 hours of 16-track (I've never actually measured it, but it is long enough to 'go do something else', which is a workflow hit.

[thebri]

So I've been doing some of the math on the flash drives, since I can't seem to find a 1U Usb rack drive. Let's face it, the flash drives would save space anyway.

According to my math, 24 tracks at 24bit/96K will yield slightly less than 100 minutes of record time. It will take a sustained 6MB/sec to write those files. S, can these flash drives keep up with this? My 2GB thumb drive can't, but it is like 4 years old.

So 32GB thumb drives seem to be going for about $50. USB 2.0 hubs for around $20. So 4.5 hours of recording media could be assembled for $250. Not bad.

So the questions for the JoeCo folk are:

Has the unit been tested with USB flash drives?
Can it mount multiple drives?
Can it use multiple simultaneous Drives? As in 1-12 use Drive A, 13-24 use drive B?
Can it auto switch drives as they fill up? (ala Panasonic P2 cameras, or Sony's EX series)

I'll be sending these question directly to them as well and will post the results.

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by Jam

Hi Soundrick

The first thing I said in my post was " from my point of view " and I'll continue in that spirit. The combination of smaller size, native BWF and inbuilt sync add up for me. I attempted a genuine answer to your, I assumed, genuine question, now it may be the distortion effect of the internet but your response seems laced with sarcasm.

If it wasn't your intention to be sarcastic or patronising, I unreservedly apologise.


James

No need to apologize, I was being a little snarky. But no harm meant, just a little back and forth, all in good fun.

My question was genuine. There are a lot of redundant products out there right now, and they seem to be getting more expensive as varying technologies get cheaper.

Whatever works for you, of course. But I'm always wondering where the extra cost is being thrown, and the best barometer for justification of cost is the target market's willingness to pay.

So, I see your points, and I understand. This thing would probably suit your needs better than others.

cheers