Gospel Choir Sound Reinforcement

[menestrello]

Hi everybody,
it's the first I write here... I need of your opinion about a gospel choir sound reinforcement.

I work with a 20 elements choir and a band composed by drum, bass, el. guitar and piano (el. piano.. a Roland, not acoustic)...

the problem is on the choir mics... I use 4 AudioTechnica AT4041, and I'm happy with them but I'd like to get a richer, fuller sound... the AT4041 are very clean and detailed... perhaps too much detailed and brilliant...

what is your opinion about it?
I've already read (in this forum) about Beyer MC930, and Neumann KM184 and Oktava MK-012.... but I'm confused because nobody wrote precisely about my situation... for example Beyer is a very high sensitivity mic... and for a live reinforcement it's maybe a risk choice..

I'm wainting for your suggests....

Bye Mauro

P.S: Sorry for my english..

[fifthcircle]

I cannot speak with much intelligence about the Beyer as I have never used them... However, with the other two mics listed you will get differing versions of the same problem. The Neumann and Oktava are both on the bright and clean end of the spectrum.

Before you go mic shopping, a couple things to try-

1. preamps. What are these mics going through. This will have almost as much of an effect as mic choice. Use a warmer pre- most small diaphragm condensers in low to mid budgets will have a brighter sound.

2. Position. How do you have the mics placed? For Gospel situations, I usually go in close but up above the group "looking" into the center of the choir.

With mics-

I've had great experiences with ribbons (especially the active ribbons from Royer Labs). The null side of the figure 8 can aim at monitors and other musicians on stage (drums, keys, etc...) and really help the isolation.


--Ben

[menestrello]

Thanks!!!

I use a Soundcraft LX7II mixer... it's not a bad sound gear... but of course the preamps are not high end... I cannot change it...

Would you buy a 4 channels preamps before changing the mics?

About the position... the mic are in front of the people... just a little higher then the heads of the singers.. looking a little into the center of the choir... but just a little...

I've never thought about ribbon mics... Royers are too expensive... the Neumann KM184 is the target maximum.. don't you think I'd lose too much details using ribbon mics?

Bye Mauro

[fifthcircle]

I guess it all ends up with budget in the end. You aren't going to get high-end performance at a low-end budget. I would have a lot more gear if we could .

I would keep an eye on the used market for quality pres. Heck, there is an ADL600 for sale cheap in the used section of this site. That would definitely give you warm.

Ribbons won't take too much detail away. The issue is going to be more with the calbe runs and the pres if you are using passive ribbons. There are a couple gospel tracks on an album I did last spring. The choir isn't fantasic (although they aren't bad). Here is a link to a sample from a track: http://www.angelcitychorale.org/musi...ack08-1min.mp3 Here is the album site: CD - The Road Home - Los Angeles Choir Angel City Chorale

The room was a barn of a room- huge with tons of reverb. I had to get tight on the choir to get the needed isolation. In this case, I had planned to use 4 prototype active ribbons, but 2 of them were damaged so I was forced to go 2 actives plus an ORTF pair. I used the active ribbons on the flanks and the stereo pair of schoeps in the center. The performance space where the choir sat was narrow with walls with a slap. Using fig-8 mics on the flanks minimized the slap in a major way plus it allowed for monitors for the choir to better hear the piano, bass, etc...

--Ben

[menestrello]

Ok,
thanks... I'll take a look to a warmer sound preamps..

If you would have an unlimited budget which preamps and mics you'd buy?

Of course always talking about sound reinforcemente, not recording.

Thank you so much

Mauro

[menestrello]

I've just seen the Youtube video on the site you link.

It's a good sound... but, in my case, my choir is a more contemporary gospel sound..more more punchy sound.. not far from hip hop (think about kirk Franklin ok?) and the place, usually, is very smaller then in your case... so i have to place the mics much nearer to the singers... just one foot.. the choir is in the middle of the stage.... drum and bass on the left and keys, piano and guitar on the right... but everybodys stay not far from each other...

So it's really different.. and the isolation problems are too much..

Bye Mauro

[fifthcircle]

FWIW- the youtube link uses the sound from the camera's mic- not the recorded sound that made it to disc. The CD of the choir has pieces in about 5 or 6 differing styles. The MP3 I linked is a more traditional gospel sound. The other tracks include folk, pop, classical, etc...

And preamps in sound reinforcement are always a good thing. For that matter, any quality after-market gear will help your sound from pres to comps to EQs to quality effects.

There is a ton of good gear out there- to a point it depends on your personal taste. I like my Vac Rac pres, my Pacifica, my API pres, and others. They all have their uses.

Here's a backstage shot of a festival that I mix every summer. As you can see, there are no shortage of pres here, and yes my principal job is sound reinforcement.

--Ben

[menestrello]

Ok thanks,
I know almost all of your gears... I like a lot the Pacifica preamps..

I'm mainly a studio sound engineer (I have BAE 1073 and Millennia HV3C pre in studio) but in this case i have to use the service gears and in additional I can take my own mic...and by now my preamps..

Ok thank you very much, and I definitively look for some warm preamps and i'll try to find out a warmer sound not changing the mics.

Bye Mauro

[Eric Weber]

Are you gent's jokeing? Minor differences in microphones and especially preamps are unlikely to be noticeable in sound reinforcement. Acoustic treatemt of the room, setup and speakers will dwarf any variation in resonable quality microphones or preamps. If it's not "warm" enough back off the treble trim above 8k or so.... if it's too boomy back off below 150hz or so.
The choir's placement in the room is very important if you have the option of moving them, to test different locations.

Concentrate on placement of the microphones... choose a pattern that put's the null in the direction of the speakers. Prefrably the speakers or choir should not be opposite a reflective wall...

The superior solution for a choir is to get rid of the evil sound reinforcement... buy or build a shell

Rgds:
Eric

[rmx16]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

FWIW- the youtube link uses the sound from the camera's mic- not the recorded sound that made it to disc. The CD of the choir has pieces in about 5 or 6 differing styles. The MP3 I linked is a more traditional gospel sound. The other tracks include folk, pop, classical, etc...

And preamps in sound reinforcement are always a good thing. For that matter, any quality after-market gear will help your sound from pres to comps to EQs to quality effects.

There is a ton of good gear out there- to a point it depends on your personal taste. I like my Vac Rac pres, my Pacifica, my API pres, and others. They all have their uses.

Here's a backstage shot of a festival that I mix every summer. As you can see, there are no shortage of pres here, and yes my principal job is sound reinforcement.

--Ben

Ben
What did you use Vac Rac's on? (Ribbons...)

Peace

[menestrello]

Hi Eric,
All that you said it's already done... they are the basic things to do.

But different mics can drastically change your eq boost or cut.. don't you think?

the only thing I couldn't do anymore is trying different positions of the choir..

Do you have any mics to suggest?

Bye Mauro

[menestrello]

Hi Eric,
tell me more about the "shell" idea...

Bye Mauro

[Eric Weber]

I would be more concerned about the microphone having clean nulls with a directional pattern chosen to null in the direction of the speakers, or if you have a particularly bad reflection from a wall then the offending wall for the null.

As for the shell Idea, it may not be appropriate or required for your hall?? but here is why the choir I work with uses ... It helps with their projection in the venues we work in...



Wenger Corporation | Travelmaster ™ Acoustical Shell

Rgds:
Eric

Home

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Eric Weber

Are you gent's jokeing? Minor differences in microphones and especially preamps are unlikely to be noticeable in sound reinforcement.

In my experiences, yes, they actually make a huge difference. If they didn't I'd just use all SM58's and SM81s. Fortunately, though, the differences to me are not subtle and that is why I use and recommend quality gear. There is a lot more to sound reinforcement and concert sound design than gain before feedback and watching your mic's nulls.

Ben
What did you use Vac Rac's on? (Ribbons...)

Peace

In that particular show, the solo vocal mics went through the Vac Racs. In that case, the festival was classically based and the festival management expects us to get every possible bit of fidelity out of the system. All Mics were high-end (Neumann, Sennheiser, Schoeps, DPA, etc...) and all those mics went through high-end preamps. Then the line level signals were split between FOH and Monitors using a splitter with Jensen transformers. FOH was a PM5D console clocked w/ a Big Ben and reverb was handled by Lexicon 960.

Vac Racs are great, but sometimes they don't have enough gain for ribbon mics. I've often had to chain 2 preamps (out one into the di of the other) to get enough gain for ribbon mics.

--Ben

[menestrello]

Ok guys!!! Thanks!!

The truth stays in the middle.... good mic positions and good gears is the right way...

The budget is not infinity but my AT4041 are not bad mic... I'll try to pay more attention to the positions and keep an eye on new preamps... (and eq).

The shell is a good idea... in theather and cinema it could be used... but not in a church for sure...

Thanks bye

Mauro

Menestrello Home Studio - registrazione voce Bologna

[menestrello]

What about using large diaphragm mics? or semi-large... For istance, Gefell M930?

I've seen a lot of sound engineer using AT4033 or C3000... but i've never used large diaphragm..

What do you think about it?

Bye Mauro

[fifthcircle]

The M930 is a great mic. You'll find that the cardiod pattern is rather sloppy- it is very wide. But you'll get a sound that is very similar to a mid-vintage U87. I have a pair of them and enjoy them on lots of different sources.

Oh yeah- and make sure the side with the pattern logo is facing front. Many folks point them backwards the first time they use them (the brand and xlr orientation both are on the back)

Also-

What are you using for effects when you mix. Improving the quality of reverb and effects can make a HUGE difference in your sound. I usually go for a Lexicon 300 or better (I own a 300 and rent a 960 regularly), but there is lots of stuff that will work well. If you are using low-end verbs (ie low end Yamaha, TC, etc...) that are geared as much towards guitar efx processing, you won't get a very flattering sound on your choir. A number of times when I've mixed shows on a Yamaha digital board, midway through, I have switched from the Yamaha Rev-X verbs to my Lexicon and every time, the client has noticed and been very happy with the results.

--Ben

[menestrello]

Thanks Ben,
I'm wondering If a so wide cardioid pattern could be a problem in a sound reinforcement application... also about isolation and larsen problems... I'll try..

When you say similar to a mid-vintage U87... you mean also in the typical high mid harsh sound of the U87? because i don't like it so much... above all with a gospel choir where the natural sound is what I'm looking for..

About the reverb.. I have a TC M3000 and a Lexicon PCM81... it all depends on the kind of hall... of course in a church nothing to say... but in a theather or a cinema I've always used the TC... it's a really natural sound... the VSS3 reverb algorithm is very good for this applications.

I use the Lexicon rarely on the lead vocals... to increase the "magic" around the voice..

Bye Mauro

[fifthcircle]

The wider the pattern, the more leakage (ie amplification of things you don't want amplified- like drum leakage) and the less gain you get before you're dealing with feedback issues... Not always a bad thing, but also not necessarily a good thing.

--Ben