Live show audio options: wireless vs field recorder

[johndykstra]

Hey guys, this isn't a regular area for me, so forgive me if this is a question that's been done to death or irrelevant.

I recently got my first video camera. (Canon Vixia HF11) This Saturday, I recorded us playing out, and while the sound was good/ok, me being the slut I am, I'd like it to be better..and I'd like the option of a moving video feed, while keeping a consistent audio signal.

Some years back, I worked at a music store, and AKG had made a wireless system with a camera mountable, battery powered receiver...and on the other end was a transmitter that would allow stereo line ins. If something like this is an option, I would put a small mixer on the front end, combining a board mix with a pair of SDC room mics. The pros, as I see it, with this type of set-up, would be that the a/v sync is automatic, and probably a more affordable route. Negatives, is that the audio is far less "editable", and there are a lot more variables in the amout of equipment needed.

My second, and as I type probably better option, would be to have a separate field recorder, prefferable with 4 inputs, 2 of which have a decent pair of phantom powered mic ins. Being able to delay the board feed would be awesome (maybe a separate box?)...My questions with this option are this:

Good field recorder as described above (cd burner not important), in the $1,000 range?

Is there a box (cheap) to set a delay on the board mix?

How difficult is it to sync audio to video using I-MOVIE, and if it is difficult, what video editing software should I be looking at?

Again, thanks to anyone who can help me out with what is likely very fundemental questions for you remoters.

[huub]

Wireless is convenient but does not sound very good, budget wireless options sound pretty awful..
Synching in imovie should be pretty easy, especially if you record a clap both in sound and vision before the show starts, you have to check every song though, there might be some drift during the concert, but you can just sync every song by ear/eye..
I do not know by what resolution you can shift audio in imovie (frames or samples?) but really, with live music you do not really notice a fame offset.. Most music videos on mtv arent perfectly lipsync, with music it's not annoying for some reason..

You shouldnt have to delay the board feed, as your picture has no delay too (light is really fast, remember

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by huub

Wireless is convenient but does not sound very good, budget wireless options sound pretty awful..
Synching in imovie should be pretty easy, especially if you record a clap both in sound and vision before the show starts, you have to check every song though, there might be some drift during the concert, but you can just sync every song by ear/eye..
I do not know by what resolution you can shift audio in imovie (frames or samples?) but really, with live music you do not really notice a fame offset.. Most music videos on mtv arent perfectly lipsync, with music it's not annoying for some reason..

Yeah, I was pretty much leaning in this direction, thanks for the reply

[huub]

Check at what samplerate your camera records (most likely 48 khz) and set your fieldrecorder to the same samplerate.. I'm sure you know this, but I said it anyway, just i case

[d_fu]

Huub's got it right... I've added video recording to a few recent concert recordings, and simply synced manually, the camera just recorded independently. There was never any need to resync, even across the length of a symphony or so (and even if audio was accidentally recorded at 44.1k...).

I also considered wireless options for both video and audio, but the quality simply isn't good enough. Much would also depend on the quality (or availability) of the cam's line inputs, and whether or not it allows manual gain control. You don't want AGC to spoil your nice recording. For non-broadcast applications, I'd consider manual sync to be sufficient most of the time.

[johndykstra]

Cool, thanks.

Any chance of me landing a decent field recorder in the 1k range? And what are the thoughts on the necessity of a delay on a board mix to match up with the room mics? Generally we're playing in 100cap rooms or so, so the distance shouldn't be too severe...am I over thinking this?

[huub]

If the room mics are from stage, pointing at the audience, there is no need to delay your mix (delaying your mix would make it out of sync with your picture anyway).

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by huub

If the room mics are from stage, pointing at the audience, there is no need to delay your mix (delaying your mix would make it out of sync with your picture anyway).

Interesting concept...but...

I was actually thinking of having the mics back at the mixer. Most of the clubs we play are small, so there isn't much snare and guitars coming through the mains. The stereo mics would be the bulk of the signal, I just want to have the board mix blended in so I can bump up the vocals and kick if need be. This is where my concern for the delay comes into play. If I can find a field recorder that can export seperate files into Logic, I could simply nudge the tracks into phase after the fact.

[johndykstra]

After a little digging, this appears to be a good optiion for me:

Edirol R44 4-Channel Portable WAV/MP3 Recorder, SDHC, 24-bit/96kHz | Full Compass

Anyone have any experience with this Edirol company? They seem to be affiliated with Roland.

I was also looking at a couple of Marantz options, but can't seem to find any 4 track models....hmmm

[LX3]

The R-44 is awesome. Well-designed little box. For the money, you cannot beat it.

My R-44 and my camera do not quite have the same concept of 48kHz however. You may need to nudge the audio a frame or so after each song. Depends if you're as picky as I am about sync!

YMMV depending on your choice of camera.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by LX3

The R-44 is awesome. Well-designed little box. For the money, you cannot beat it.

My R-44 and my camera do not quite have the same concept of 48kHz however. You may need to nudge the audio a frame or so after each song. Depends if you're as picky as I am about sync!

YMMV depending on your choice of camera.

Thanks man, good to hear! What program are you using for syncing? Also, are you able to dump the 4 tracks into a daw for mixing and editing purposes?

[LX3]

I'm doing the video sync in Final Cut Pro. Watch the drummer, especially if you can get a clear shot of the snare. Audio a frame late looks better than audio a frame too early.

And yes, I do exactly what you're talking about - stereo L+R from FOH for two tracks, and a pair of room mics to the other two tracks.

EQ and mix those stereo pairs in whatever DAW you like. You can set the R-44 up to record four separate mono files, or more convenient still, two stereo WAVs.

And yes again, on these simple four-track recordings, I place my room mics by the FOH board, deliberately so that it picks up the PA sound as well as the crowd. Then mix that in with the dry desk audio. Try it without time-aligning the two to begin with and see how it sounds... sometimes that slight delay means the desk provides the definition to the mix and the room sound just fills it out, which can be better than blurring things by timealigning them (the phase relationship is very unlikely to be the same at all frequencies anyway). But as the distance between the mics and the main stacks increases it turns into a distinct echo, in which case you definitely need to delay the dry audio (or shift the room sound earlier).

It's funny, because this is exactly how I started doing live recordings back in the eighties! Although the four-track gear I used back than was a lot bigger...

[johndykstra]

Thanks Paul.

Any experience with Imovie? Is Final Cut Pro a significant enough difference than what I have?

Thanks again!

[LX3]

It's been a very long time since I've used iMovie, and even then, I didn't spend more than two or three hours with it.

But if I recall, it wasn't a huge problem syncing audio in iMovie (the old iMovie HD anyway... not the current iMovie, that's a totally different beast).

I found iMovie harder to understand than FCP sometimes - it tries to make everything so straightforward for you that I found it tricky to be sure what it was doing sometimes.

FCP Express might be an option... More "controllable" than iMovie, not as big an investment as FCP Studio.

But for basic stuff, try iMovie HD first. It's free after all

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by LX3

I'm doing the video sync in Final Cut Pro. Watch the drummer, especially if you can get a clear shot of the snare. Audio a frame late looks better than audio a frame too early.

If you can't get the timing right, you can always fly the audio and the video into a DAW, nudge the audio some amount less than a frame, and bring it back into FCP.

There's supposed to be some sub-frame slip functionality in FCP, but I haven't tried. I read the instructions and this seemed easier.

-Dan.

[johndykstra]

I actually realized last night that my Logic Studio package came with Final Cut Pro . I need to pay more attention to things. Alright, got some learning to do.

[LX3]

Er.... you get Soundtrack in with Logic Studio. Don't think you get Final Cut though. Maybe you have a demo version of FCP? FCP is more expensive than Logic.

[johndykstra]

will have to check on that...you may just be right