Small String Orchestra Recording: suggestions?

[guerillamixer]

Hi all,

I'm recording a small string orchestra (6 violin, 2 vioila, 2 celli, 2 double bass) in a medium size concert hall (see attached pic). The gear i've got confirmed is:

HD 3, 8 analog ins;
wagner u47w;
royer sf12;
Millenia media STT-1 preamp.

I'll be hiring a stereo pre for the royer (will really depend on whats available).

I'm after suggestions on mic positioning, things like:

will I be able to fit all the players into tie 90 degrees offered by the royer ?

[guerillamixer]

oops, accidently posted the above..

to continue;

heres the pic,

I'm thinking royer augmented by spot mics, but i'd love to get away with just the sterepair.

thanks.

[sonare]

Try to get a pair of Millennia Media pres-- they will work exceptionally well with an SF12 on instruments. I would use only the Royer.

The venue looks terrific!

Rich

[Tim Farrant]

A stereo pair should be sufficient for an ensemble of this size, but in commercial applications I have always used "picker" mics recorded onto seperate tracks in case you or the producer need to bring up certain sections in the mix. A mic over each section, like 1st violins, 2nd violins, viola etc.. is a good idea if you have the tracks available. Some small capsule condensors should do the trick, the U47 in front of the cellos or basses will be nice, and this might be useful in adding some weight to the stereo pair.

Hope it goes well
Cheers
Tim.

[guerillamixer]

good plan. No use for the wagner? even as an omni ambience? Probably just screw with the phase of the royer i guess..


The hall is pretty amazing sounding , I'm thinking of trying to grab some impulse responses after the session!

[Tim Farrant]

Use the Wagner on the cello or bass sections, in front, and make sure the preamp for the stereo pair is top notch, as this will be the main sound, use the pickers to bring up sections as required in the mix. You will no doubt get enough ambience from the stereo pair - is there an audience? If not, that room looks like it is going to be live as hell!

Cheers
Tim.

[guerillamixer]

Hi Tim,

yep the Wagner on the db/cello sounds good. I'd like to try the db in the centre with the violins on the right and the viola and and cello on the right. The recordings are kind of classical/pop hybrids, with some overdubs and vocals.

No audience, but what looks like wood in the pic is actually cloth covered panels, so its not quite as bright as it looks.

Any suggestions on improving the direct to reverb ratio for the sf 12? I'm thinking of just getting as close as possible, but with the 90 degree limit on the blumlein pattern will impose some limits on that...

Thanks for the tips!

Andrei

[A27Hull]

[quote=Tim Farrant]U. You will no doubt get enough ambience from the stereo pair - is there an audience?

Very true...

[Andrei-what are you recording to???]

Hi all,

Enjoy your conversation and agree all around. I just recorded a small acoustic ensemble in a similar situation and must say that spot mics make all the difference concerning options and balance. The schoeps C5 omni I had on the crowd was in no way as pleasing as my stereo NOS near coincident pair. As for placement on stereo pair. Safe bet= back from center by a distance of half the width of the ensemble. Next choice: what pattern? 2xfigure eight, or 2x cardioid?

Use spot mics...which equals=gear rental-- most major cities offer this service, and in the end, the consumer won't know that you used a few KM 84's or AT 4050's or whatever other mid range mics you use. Your current list is impressive.

As suggested, the producer may have "ideas" about where things should be placed. Perhaps you may use the stereo pair as a reference (when mixing), omni pattern spot mics will minimize phase problems, but a well placed cardioid will give you a level of instrument separation.

remember* If you boost spot mics too much (mixing), you will start loosing depth quickly.

Blumlien systems are great if you have the technology. If the room is too live, use the cardioid patterns.

The 90 degree span of the coincident stereo mic should do fine, after all you wont have a choice will you? I prefer near coincident pairs because of the width issue, and let me include that trying to geometrically allign two separate mics with a protractor can be a tedious process. XY stereo mics eliminate this problem, and in your case will do what you need it to. As a bonus, the feed you get from the Royer should sum to mono, no problem- Spaced omni's flanking the stereo pair might help little.

dont worry about the width issue if you use multiple mics. worry about getting clean, balanced signals, (the stereo mic will then function mainly as an ambience mic-should you use spot mics). If the ensembel does not balance itself (a daunting task), how can you achieve balance with a single stereo mic? Your mix, record, will sound professional if it is as balanced as what you buy normally-you can try to do this with a stereo pair, but then... how?

The bottomline: after set up, if you did things right, and it sounds superb, the ensemble makes or breaks the recording.

Thanks for the patience in reading, and good luck with the gig!

Andrew


ensemble

[A27Hull]

forgot one important concern: "COMB FILTERING" / Phase (time) error and its effect on your sound

may not be a problem- but worth keeping in mind. There will be phase differences with multiple mics, naturally, escpecially between spot mics and stereo pair... but this effect is part of the natural "liveness" of the performance.

so, keep in mind the three to one ratio (3/1) when setting up - if you use spot mics.

Andrew-

[guerillamixer]

Hi Andrew,

I'm recording to protools HD at 96/24 thru the 192 i/o. The royer is a coincident figure 8 pair, so the options are blumlein or m/s, and I think I'll be going blumlein. As far as the standard of the ensemble goes, I'm in luck, as they are mostly full-time professional orchestra players, and the parts have been kept deliberately simple. Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll post how it goes..

Cheers,

Andrei.

[Yannick]

I think you'll be fine with the SF12. It seems a nice hall, and placing the mic in the right position will not get it too close to the middle, nor the back wall (IMO a blumlein pair needs room in the back, or the reflections/ambience that comes from the back screw up the sound).

If you have problems getting far enough to get the players in that 90deg recording angle, try in MS and narrow the image ever so slightly. You can get away with that, even with two figure of eights.

[0VU]

Assuming that this is a classical type recording rather than any kind of contemporary weirdness / film music / something over which to overdub later, and the instrumental layout is reasonably conventional, I'd go with the Royer, probably in MS (just a personal preference) and rig a pair of omni or sub-cardioid SDC outriggers and an omni or sub-cardioid centre mic just in case.

Get the Royer in the right place and you probably won't need anything else unless you want to mess around with the balance to make a more manufactured sort of wider stereo image or more extended LF reproduction (not that there's that much LF in a band that small anyway) or extra close detail.

I'd probably end up using just the Royer but have the others available to widen things a little if the producer prefers a bigger image and/or more LF and to give a little more definition, if required, to the centre. I personally prefer a little depth in the centre but a lot of producers I work with want a flatter soudstage with more detail from the deeper stage areas.

Another vote here for the Millennia pres. If you already have an STT-1, you could hire another one to do the other side of the Royer. I've got a "mixer" based upon four STT-1s and a Summit TMX420 which works well on this kind of thing. If you decide to go for any extra mics something like an HV3D, Crookwood Paintpot/iPre series or a Grace 801 (may be a little bright) would probably be a good option and it'd save you hiring another STT-1.

It looks like a nice hall, where is it?

[Ollie]

I think having a stereo pre with a good amount of clean gain for the Royer will be important. I like the idea of the U47w used by the Celli and bass.

If you can get a hold of Neumann KM64'S or KM264'S, they are really quite wonderful on strings also.

[fifthcircle]

I like the Royers on strings... I'd start at about 8-10 feet up and 3-5 feet in front of the ensemble and adjust to taste. I usually augment my blumlein pair with a pair of omni directional flanking mics. In my case B&K 4006's. Use the main pair for your focus of the image and then bring the flanks up to open the sound up a touch. I wouldn't spot anything inside the orchestra. I would also avoid mono ambience mics. The ensemble sound is a stereo sound and mono ambience will cause you to likely loose your spacious image you are getting from your mains.

--Ben

[audioez]

stand on stage and listen to the balence of the players, then pick your battles.

[sonare]

Where was the venure for that scoring session?

Rich

[audioez]

http://www.mcp-studios.com

I was a staff engineer for 2 years, and then I went freelance..OH MY!!!!

[krs]

guerillamixer -

that hall is one of the coolest I've ever seen. What/where is it?

Kirk

[guerillamixer]

Thanks for all the suggestion guys.

The hall is the Federation Hall at the Grand Chancellor in Hobart, Tasmania.

Audioez, is that you with the red shirt picking some battles? I don't think i've got anything to worry about on the scale of things (is that 8 cellos?) , but I'd like to to get it as good as possible!

I've just been to the hall again for a recon, this time with stage access (last time I was at the back of the audience in a concert) and it is very live: what I thought where cloth panels at the back of the stage are 'attractively disguised' (painted) concrete slabs..In fact, all the walls are concrete poly-cylinders, all the way up (the ceiling must be at least 15m). Hmmm. To be honest, the sound is bordering on the church-like in length, but with a very even diffusion. Standing on centre stage with a soprano singing, there are no discrete reflections from side-stage, facing out into the audience, the reverb is very 'mono' for want of a better word. Air con-noise is pretty low (its vented under the seats, and the lights(which buzz a little) can be switched off.

Due to the size of the town, there are no real recording hire companies as such, so its down to what I can persuade people to part with from their racks and cupboards.

At the moment the options are looking like

2 * u87 (new capsules), 1* 89, wagner u47w, royer sf12

with (hopefully)
2 *amek 9098 (the dual channel pres), 1 apogee mini-me, mill-media stt1.

I'm going to track down the engineer for the state orchestra who reside in the hall (should have been the first step!) and see what he does for smaller ensembles. Any further suggestions?

Thanks All

Andrei

[fifthcircle]

I'd probably run your SF-12 as your main pair and put your U87's in omni and put them at about the 1st to 2nd row of strings in line with the mains as your flanking mics. Pretend you didn't have the flanks when you position your mains then bring in the flanks to open your sound. I'd probably use your Amek for your mains and whatever else you have a pair of for your flanks.

--Ben

[guerillamixer]

As an update:

We've done the recording, it was 18 strings all up. I used

SF-12 into AMEK about 2.5m high, 2 m from front of ensemble

with

U47w into Stt-1 on Bass/Cello

u89 into Avalon on 2nd violins

u87 into AMEK on 1sts

u87 into Amek on Violas.

I decided to go for section mics instead of space omnis due to the liveness of the hall. There is still plenty of room in the mains.


We did some overdubs on French horn, alto flute and african percussion (dun, dun djembe, talking drum, shaker) with the U47 as a spot, sf12 as mains in same position, and the u87 as space omnis.

The recording went very smoothly due to some awesome string writing, great players and a brilliant and very recording-savvy conductor, (Guy Noble). The hall and the royer sf12/ameks did most of the recording work for me. I'll post some example files when I've edited the takes if any are interested.