Low cost SDC's - Here We Go Again....

[mrsteaks]

Okay guys, this SDC debate has been beaten to death, but there are new candidates/clones out there and of course some stalwarts. I'm putting together suggestions for a "B rig" for a school in my area. Their focus will be choral, piano, orchestral - all in a recital setting in reasonably good rooms.

The price point is $1000 the pair. They must have separate card and omni capsules or be switchable. They must be quiet and have good "reach" (I suspect they'll be used in the diffuse field a bit after speaking with the program director). A B pair, of course, sometimes near coincident, possibly M/S (which means Fig 8 pattern added to the mix).

I have owned and cannot recommend the following: Avenson STO-2; good timbre, balance, character, but too noisy. Peluso CEMC6; detailed, good reach, quiet, but too bright. AKG C451; too noisy, timbre too thin, cardioid only. Earthworks SR-71; good timbre and balance, but noisy, not overly sensitive and cardioid only.

Candidates:

1) Shure KSM 141 pair
2) Octava MK-012 pair (with all the capsules)
3) DPA 4090 pair (omni only, but that's okay)
4) Chinese Stuff I'm not Aware Of

Remember - $1000/pair!

My usual thanks!

[Jungle Jazz]

If you need cardioid and omni, I'll vote for the Shure KSM141. If you can live with cardioid only, I'd suggest the Beyerdynamic MC930.

[tnjazz]

At the risk of sounding like a gear pimp, we will be carrying these shortly (to be released in the next 2 months):

JZ Microphones / Products

A pair with card and omni capsules fits right into that price point.

I know of one orchestra already that is soon to receive a beta pair for testing, and I myself have a beta pair on the way for my own testing. I will be happy to post samples if requested. Just drop me a PM.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

If you need cardioid and omni, I'll vote for the Shure KSM141. If you can live with cardioid only, I'd suggest the Beyerdynamic MC930.

Hi Mark,

I would agree with Jungle's suggestion. Another mic to consider is the Rode NT55. I can't say how it stacks up to something like the C451, but it fits the budget and has the desired features.

[MichaelPatrick]

You can hear 4 clips I recorded using a matched pair of Beyer MC930s in this thread - Piano, two clarinet clips, and a choir:

Beyer MC930 for classical distant miking

I'd do a google search for "beyer dynamic mc-930 set price" and then call a few of the guys selling a matched pair for $999. I'd bet someone will give you a price closer to $800 -about $200 off- if you just ask what they can do for you.

If you can get a pair of these mics for that price you will have found a great stereo solution (two MC930s) for less than one KM-184. And personally, I wouldn't trade one of my Beyers for a matched pair of Neumann KM-184s.

This mic is a sleeper. NO, I don't sell stuff. I just like gear that works well.

Shure KSM-141, your option "A" is also good.

[Recording David]

Josephson C42!

Edit: just re-read and you want omni+cardioid. The C42 is only cardioid (but sounds great).

[mljung]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

At the risk of sounding like a gear pimp, we will be carrying these shortly (to be released in the next 2 months):

JZ Microphones / Products

A pair with card and omni capsules fits right into that price point.

I know of one orchestra already that is soon to receive a beta pair for testing, and I myself have a beta pair on the way for my own testing. I will be happy to post samples if requested. Just drop me a PM.

Interesting - let's hope these are great - but what is the price point..?
Black hole has had a lot of good reviews, so if JZ can make SDC as good as LDC's... well it look likes it could be something to look forward tothumbsup
¤¤
Other microphones to consider may be the upcoming Beyer MC910/MC950 and the AT4022 omni

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by mljung

Interesting - let's hope these are great - but what is the price point..?
Black hole has had a lot of good reviews, so if JZ can make SDC as good as LDC's... well it look likes it could be something to look forward tothumbsup
¤¤
Other microphones to consider may be the upcoming Beyer MC910/MC950 and the AT4022 omni

The price point I'm referring to is what the OP specified. Approximately $1000 a pair for cardioid and omni capsules. Because the JZ mics haven't been officially released yet, the prices have not been fully set. As a dealer I have seen the intended list though, and that's what they expect these mics to go for at this time.

I do agree with the other recommendations as well though, especially the beyerdynamic mics. One could get a pair of MC930 and a pair of MC910 but it would definitely be higher than the price point the OP has set. beyerdynamic has recently released the CK930, which is the model with remote capsule and cable. It's possible they will be adding options such as omni and cardioid in the near future and then that system could also be a possibility.

[Empiria]

If you really need cardioids and omnis, I would go for modified Oktava. There are very good mics without a mod, but I believe it makes them even better. For that price you have three pairs of capsules plus two bodies. Add a stereo bar and shockmounts if needed. Still there is a bit less than $1000.

[bee]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

At the risk of sounding like a gear pimp, we will be carrying these shortly (to be released in the next 2 months):

JZ Microphones / Products

A pair with card and omni capsules fits right into that price point.

I know of one orchestra already that is soon to receive a beta pair for testing, and I myself have a beta pair on the way for my own testing. I will be happy to post samples if requested. Just drop me a PM.

I like the altec "coke bottle" style of these microphones.

[geeek]

Agaan and again..

Isn't there already a pretty much identical thread tot his running elsewhere?


I'll chime in again and say the Beyer MC930's are superb. Hands down better than anything else we tested up to £1k

I'm waiting til I have enough money to buy myself a pair, as the ones I used on the past project were bought through the artist's advance.. and she's kept them to use again on other work, where she's sold other gear!

They must be good if even a non technical person can get a great sound out of them on a variety of applications.


I've found them to have a wonderful tone and definition, without sounding sterile or aggressive in the top end.

[Empiria]

A pair of the Beyer MC930's is $999. For that price he expects cardioids and omnis.

[mrsteaks]

Thank you, folks!

Really, I should explain myself here. First off, I'm sure there is a thread like this running somewhere else. Threads like this one have run here, but not for a while. This is the Forum that I frequent because it meets my needs, and I'm known here (hey Mike, long time no PM!). There have been changes in the microphone world below the price point I'm speaking of, and I haven't kept up because I look higher for own my own mics (I own Schoeps, Royer, Shure KSM 137, KSM 44, etc). And, as I suspected, you folks have given me some GREAT suggestions.

I'll audition a pair of Beyers (I already know of them and their reputation, but haven't heard them in person) plus it's apparent I need to look into the JZ's (new to me, these are). The Oktava's I've always found intriguing, and I've heard clips (which were quite good), but I've never personally examined or used the mics. Perhaps I should.

Once again, thanks - and keep the suggestions coming, please!

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by Empiria

If you really need cardioids and omnis, I would go for modified Oktava. There are very good mics without a mod, but I believe it makes them even better. For that price you have three pairs of capsules plus two bodies. Add a stereo bar and shockmounts if needed. Still there is a bit less than $1000.

A set of Oktavas are great. Forget modifications, all factory Oktavas have been made with the modification specs for some years already.

[Corran]

Just wanted to pop in and say those JZ mics look pretty awesome! I'd love to hear those clips and see some more specs - maybe I missed it but I didn't see a noise spec. Frequency response graph would be nice too.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Corran

Just wanted to pop in and say those JZ mics look pretty awesome! I'd love to hear those clips and see some more specs - maybe I missed it but I didn't see a noise spec. Frequency response graph would be nice too.

12 dB-A [so that's in the good end, if we can trust the numbers]
Frequency response graph - yes please...!

Just had a look at Violet design microphones: the grid and the specs look quite familiar if you take a look at the finger: - Professional electrostatic microphones. If that's the case I'm not so sure it'll compete with the usual suspects

[mljung]

Originally Posted by Petrus

A set of Oktavas are great. Forget modifications, all factory Oktavas have been made with the modification specs for some years already.

Michael Joly said that they made some compromises lately:

In the course of my mod work today I discovered Oktava has changed the PC board layout of new MK- 012 mics in a way that will compromise performance.
Oktava has eliminated two insulated stand-off connection points used to isolate the FET input from physical contact with the PC board. Isolating the FET input is necessary to avoid stray capacitance loading of the input and thus loss of detail and transient response.
All high quality microphones use some form of isolated FET input (or isolated grid in the case of tube mics) - this has been standard best engineering practice for decades.
My supposition is the PC board change was made to allow less labor-intensive automated assembly. The former, superior technique of using isolated stand-off connections required hand assembly.
I encounter this latest revision of the '012 PC I am restoring the previous technique of using stand-off connections and I also upgrade to point-to-point wiring in the FET input area. This adds a considerable amount of time to my work but for the time being my '012 mod pricing will remain the same until I can determine the labor costs to correct this revision.
Best, Michael

[Corran]

12db - nice!

About the Oktava mods - Mr. Joly told me several months ago that his mods still help the newer edition 012's (this was before this new development). I have a newer set and I took them apart and found, as others have said, the different capacitors that were supposed to be part of the original "Scott Dorsey" mod. But Joly's goes into more depth I believe.

[Brian Middleton]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the AT 4051a. Modular, quiet, and right at price point. A bit on the bright side, but it's a fairly classy shade of bright--not harsh or fizzy, just smoothly forward up top. Omni, cardioid and hypercard capsules available.

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by Brian Middleton

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the AT 4051a. Modular, quiet, and right at price point. A bit on the bright side, but it's a fairly classy shade of bright--not harsh or fizzy, just smoothly forward up top. Omni, cardioid and hypercard capsules available.

Thanks for that! I have heard them, and although they are priced right and modular, they are bright. Much like the Peluso's in that regard, IMHO. I just don't care for that upward tilted response, I just don't think it would suit the kind of work for which the mics are intended.

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by mljung

Just had a look at Violet design microphones: the grid and the specs look quite familiar if you take a look at the finger: - Professional electrostatic microphones. If that's the case I'm not so sure it'll compete with the usual suspects

Not sure what you mean by this? Do you find the Violet mics lacking in some way?

For the price ($500-600 a pair) I found the Black Finger mics to be some of the cleanest and most detailed mics I'd used, and that was well before I became a dealer. Much better than most of the other mics in that price range.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

Not sure what you mean by this? Do you find the Violet mics lacking in some way?

For the price ($500-600 a pair) I found the Black Finger mics to be some of the cleanest and most detailed mics I'd used, and that was well before I became a dealer. Much better than most of the other mics in that price range.

No this is just from what I read - comments and reviews. Haven't read any praise on these for classical/acoustic recordings - which is my main territory. I might be wrong [I hope I am] a shootout would be very welcome.

And user opinions as well:
Has anyone else here on GS had good/bad experiences with Violet's Fingers..?
How would you judge them compared to other sdc [or medium diaphragm condensers for that matter] in, under and above their price-range - Like Beyer MC930, Oktava MK012, Audio Technica, Neumann, Schoeps etc.?

[jnorman]

+1 on the AT4051s - love them. and i have owned DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, km184s, akg c481s, etc etc.

i also own a pair of the new AT4022 omnis and they are fantastic - unbeatable for the money.

[anechoic]

1- NT1A card
2 AT 3032's (omni's)
use in a A/B with the NT1A as a mid

[mrsteaks]

Originally Posted by jnorman

+1 on the AT4051s - love them. and i have owned DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, km184s, akg c481s, etc etc.

i also own a pair of the new AT4022 omnis and they are fantastic - unbeatable for the money.

Can you post a clip? I'd love to hear them.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by jnorman

i also own a pair of the new AT4022 omnis and they are fantastic - unbeatable for the money.

I'm still considering these as my next pressure omnis pair [to compliment my DPA 4006TL]. But I think I'll wait for the Beyer MC910 to come out and see how they compare. But I believe that the AT4022 has lower noise [if MC910 have the same as MC930].

[jnorman]

mrsteaks - i posted some samples from both the 4051s and the 4022 omnis in a previous thread, comparing ORTF vs spaced omnis on a flute and piano. so you can hear both. here is the thread:
ORTF vs Spaced Pair?

[jslevin]

I think the KSM141 pair is a very solid choice.

I haven't used them, but I'm very curious to try the CharterOak M900, which I believe goes for about $1000 a pair and includes three pairs of stereo-matched capsules. I suspect they would be the strongest value among your choices.

JSL