Wind Ensemble Setups?

[sonare]

Not too much info to be found regarding wind ensemble recordings, aside from the classics Eastman Wind Ensemble vintage recordings and the later Telarc Cleveland stuff using 3 evenly spaced Schoeps MK2S ("featuring" the bass drum).

What are folks doing? Any spots in the ensemble (as in orchestral work)? The group I must record has 46 pieces. If the room isn't great there's always Altiverb.

Rich

[hughesmr]

Hi Rich,

I know Bruce Leek has done a bunch of wind ensemble work using only a pr of MKH20. I have a couple of discs he did that way and they sound very nice to me. The halls he used tended to the dry side (not my taste) but the fidelity was fine with just an omni pair.

John Eargle also did a Percy Grainger WE disc on Delos some years back ("To the Fore!") that used only an MKH20 pair ... gawd, that was the deadest room I've ever heard on a commercial release!

[John Willett]

I recorded a clarinet quartet a few years ago with just an MS pair of MKH 30/40.

It worked very well as the CD sold out in two months and they came back to me to record a second one for them.

The first one was recorded in the music studio of Surrey University (used for the Tonmeister course) and the second in a quiet church in Kent.

If you want to hear them:- Clarinet Masquerade and Clarinet Carnival.

[d_fu]

Here's what we used for a wind ensemble last year. An AB main and some spots on groups (rather than on individual instruments), plus one on the piano and one for soloists in front.

Daniel

[fifthcircle]

Most of the wind ensemble work I've done works best under the heading of "less is more." I usually go with 3 omnis or 3 subcards across the front and call it a day. On occasion, if there is a big solo part- ie piano, harp, bass, etc..., I'll throw up a spot for them, but it is rare. The cool thing about most wind ensembles is the loud stuff is in the back and the quiet stuff is up front. They basically set up in a way that works acoustically. Makes it a pretty simple function to record well.

A perfect example are the Eastman Wind Ensemble recordings. The vast majority of them were done with just a couple mics across the front of the group. The modern recordings have some spots in the initial recordings, but in most cases, they aren't turned on for the final mix. The ones I was a part of used a pair of Schoeps (couldn't see the caps from where I was seated) spaced about 6 feet wide or so. There were tons of spots that were tracked to a DASH recorder, but the only mics used for the mix were the front pair.

---Ben

[sonare]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I recorded a clarinet quartet a few years ago with just an MS pair of MKH 30/40.

A bit of US terminology that does not translate well in the UK! The term "wind ensemble" is really a "one-on-a-part" wind band-- analogous to a brass band with woodwinds on the string parts.

Rich

[mohthom]

Originally Posted by sonare

A bit of US terminology that does not translate well in the UK! The term "wind ensemble" is really a "one-on-a-part" wind band-- analogous to a brass band with woodwinds on the string parts.

Rich

Really? Having done a fair amount of playing in a past life, I've never come across that usage. Normally for one-to-a-part winds, in my experience it's referred to as a Sinfonietta style wind ensemble. If you mean one-to-a-part as in 3 flutes, 3 clarts etc. etc. each with one to a part, that's a Wind Orchestra. A 'Wind Ensemble' is a pretty much cover-all term in my experience, covering everything from quintets right up to 200 player mass bands and the term is pretty loose. Generally, unless you're working with one of the top university ensembles (Eastman, RNCM etc.) I wouldn't get out of bed - as it's simply way too difficult to get it right! Some pro orchestras have branchout concerts (in my experience in the UK I've seen London Sinfonietta, BBC Phil, Psappha, London Phil and 10/10 do concerts of this type), but normally only for new music (with added saxophones and minus an instrument or two . . . for artistic reasons of course!).

If there's a harp, spot it. If it's a big room, close(r) mic the perc and get them to play quieter than normal. I'd personally go for an M-S with flanks, but it depends on the venue. Keep microphones clear of the conductor - generally (!!!!) wind band conductors are the worst of the worst - seriously failed orchestral conductors - and have no idea how to act around the kit (flailing arms, sweatmasters, throwing batons - I've seen more than one impale themselves on a baton during concerts, requiring trips to A&E!). I've yet to see a good one that didn't hold a job with a symphony orchestra. I've seen many that don't! Don't be afraid to point out those players that are out of tune (there may be many) and remove them from the gene-pool.

MohThoM

[mpdonahue]

Hey Rich,

What I find the biggest problem with wind bands is that very often they are set in ranks (rows) rather than sections. This makes it virtually impossible to do any kind of real section micing, which is why many resort to just a main mic system.
I've found that recording wind bands are really the same as recording orchestra, you start with the mains and add what you need for spots. (Gee mark, that was really helpful.....not!) This assumes that you have time in rehearsal to listen. If you don't have any rehearsal, then you have to make your best guesses as to what the weak sections/players will be and what will need spotlighting. Typically Woodwinds (Flute, Oboe, Clarinets Saxes and horns) will be the weakest, brass typically doesn't need much and the distant stuff (Percussion and Tympani) will need something to clarify the picture.
All the best,
-mark

[Corran]

I just recorded my college's wind ensemble last month. I used three omnis across the front as well. I also did a recording of them last year with an ORTF pair and one omni to get the low end, which worked just as well and was an overall simpler and smaller setup.

This was more "archival" than CD release recording though. I would possibly mic some woodwinds if possible, at least in my wind ensemble where there are not nearly enough clarinets (only 4-5!!!).

[sonare]

Thanks for all the input-- I have made my decision on how to approach this (and I'll have about 15 minutes to confirm/adjust) and will post a bit for the Slutz to analyze!

Rich

[mohthom]

Originally Posted by Corran

. . . In my wind ensemble where there are not nearly enough clarinets (only 4-5!!!).

That's plenty - for good players - isn't it? Clarinet 1,2,3, bass and Eb? One per part is enough. There's nothing worse than six Clarinet 3's!

MohThoM

[Roland]

I've had a fair bit of experience recording "wind ensembles" with a number of the uk military bands. I would concur with Mark's comments above, in as much as treating it like an orchestral recording. Usually I will use a main pair with supplementary spot mic's. This tends to work quite well, particulary if the ensemble has brass players. Usually they sit the clarinets, oboe's and flute's at the front with brass behind and percussion at the back. This is useful as the main problem is getting enough of the woodwind against the brass, careful positioning of the main "head mic's" helps enormously. I still recommend using spot's particularly on things like saxes and the percussion for a little more "focus", if you don't use them that's fine, but you can bet if you don't have them you will wish you had! In military band's they also usually have a double bass wich I recommend spotting and I often put mic's over tuba's to add a little warmth if needed. That being said as has been pointed out above, often the head mic's will give you almost all you need. Good luck!

Regards


Roland

[Corran]

Originally Posted by mohthom

That's plenty - for good players - isn't it? Clarinet 1,2,3, bass and Eb? One per part is enough. There's nothing worse than six Clarinet 3's!

MohThoM

It depends on what your band size is. For a large concert band or wind ensemble with 80-100 people generally there is at least a dozen or more clarinets. I am thinking more on the level of high school and college ensembles.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by mohthom

Really? Having done a fair amount of playing in a past life, I've never come across that usage. Normally for one-to-a-part winds, in my experience it's referred to as a Sinfonietta style wind ensemble. If you mean one-to-a-part as in 3 flutes, 3 clarts etc. etc. each with one to a part, that's a Wind Orchestra. A 'Wind Ensemble' is a pretty much cover-all term in my experience, covering everything from quintets right up to 200 player mass bands and the term is pretty loose.

Wow... Two stupid posts by you in one day... Perhaps you aren't from the US as Rich first posted (who knows? You don't have your location in your profile). With this one, I almost don't know where to start.

A Wind Ensemble is a pretty darned universal term on this side of the Atlantic. I'm not sure where you get off trying to pick apart semantics, but it doesn't make you look particularly good. In the states (at least at the collegiate level where most exist), a wind ensemble is fairly generic term generally referring to a symphonic band with reduced instrumentation- 1 or 2 per part, the clarinet section often being the only section that has extra players. There are precious few professional wind ensembles in the US. When you get larger, you start talking "band."

Generally, unless you're working with one of the top university ensembles (Eastman, RNCM etc.) I wouldn't get out of bed - as it's simply way too difficult to get it right! Some pro orchestras have branchout concerts (in my experience in the UK I've seen London Sinfonietta, BBC Phil, Psappha, London Phil and 10/10 do concerts of this type), but normally only for new music (with added saxophones and minus an instrument or two . . . for artistic reasons of course!).

Now, in the college ranks, there are some pretty spectacular groups out there. I have personally played with the Eastman Wind Ensemble and the Wind Ensemble of the University of Southern California. Both are absolutely worth liisteing to. Other great groups come out of the University of Michigan, University of Colorado, UCLA, Miami, and elsewhere- there really are a lot of them out there. As to whether or not they are worth "Getting out of bed," that seems like a rather personal and rather elitist answer. Fine if you don't want to work with anything but the best, that's fine, but some of us have to make a living and don't always choose only the absolute best clients.

The fact is, even at the high school level, there are some pretty good groups that are worth listening to. Here in Southern California, there are some schools in San Diego county that have amazing groups as does the high school in Santa Monica. The ones that aren't at that level.... well, it is a pay check that cashes like the rest. Just because they aren't at the level of the Eastman Wind Ensemble doesn't mean that they don't deserve the same level of work that we as professionals bring to the table.

Sorry everybody... I'll get off my soapbox and stop ranting. I just get tired of self-serving stupid posts. Back to my regular calm self.

--Ben

[Roland]

Though the term Wind Ensemble, can refer to many groups of various sizes more often than not it refers to the type of band such as the military fields for concerts (as apposed to marching) and as has correctly been identified earlier, groups like the Eastman wind ensemble. There are many of these groups throughout the world and there is an extensive range of both original music and arrangements for this type of ensemble, many of them are very good groups. Of course if you are to field a group like this with players of the standard of top orchestral or freelance players they may not match up, but most of the military bands, both here and in the states are of a very good standard and thoroughly enjoyable to listen too in my experience.

Regards


Roland

PS: more information can be had by looking up wind ensemble on Wikipedia

[rstreber]

I recorded a pretty large ensemble last month in an all-new-music wind-ensemble concert. One of the pieces included some unusual setups (percussion and harp soloists, electric guitar, synthesizer all down-stage around the conductor), and another had some antiphonal brass-choir stuff going on with players spread around the space a bit. The rest of the pieces were standard setups. I used a "mini-decca" main array with a pair of Brauner VM1s (omni) on the sides and a UMT-70 (omni) in the center; a spaced pair of MKH8040s as spot mics on the high winds (moved a bit from piece to piece); a pair of 4006s for the back edges of the group and antiphonal bits, and then km84s as spots on harp, piano, timpani solo (one piece was a timp. concerto of sorts.) I also had an SF-12 in the back of the space as a room mic, but it wasn't terribly useful in the end (it was a very dry and boring space.) It turned out well, and all of the composers on the concert (myself among them) were very happy with it.

[fifthcircle]

sounds like a fun show with a pretty good setup.

--Ben

[rstreber]

Yeah, it was a great show, really interesting program up at Boston Conservatory (well, the concert was at Boston College High School, but the performers were from BoCo.) The other composers on the program were all great and a lot of fun to work with.
It was a little weird doing double-duty as a composer and engineer, but the challenge was enjoyable. Actually I think that dealing with the recording distracted me from being nervous about my premiere

[Dr Bob]

I record university wind ensemble concerts five or six times a year. Mostly it's in our own recital hall so over the years I have been able to experiment and refine our set up. At one time or another I suppose I have tried most standard stereo techniques in there: A/B, ORTF, DIN, you name it. They all have their place. Our wind ensemble concerts usually present various sized groups. It's not unusual to find a piece for say 45 players on the same program with, say, the Stravinsky octet. It can be a challenge to find a set ups that are flexible enough to get good results and yet not too obtrusive visually. After all it's a concert not a recording session. I rely now on a Royer SF-24 in M/S as my main pair, and a couple of spots when absolutely necessary. The hall works well with the M/S set up (I have used Schoeps in this configuration as well) but the Royer tames a certain edginess our hall gives to brass instruments. It's a fairly dry hall so a touch of Altiverb magic helps. All in all a good match. (For our larger symphonic band, it's a Decca tree and two omni flankers.)

For session recordings with the wind ensemble we usually use Mechanics Hall as a venue and mic straight across with three DPA 4006, or Schoeps mk2s mics, one Neumann omni about 60 feet out for ambiance and whatever spots we feel we need. In that hall with music for a large wind ensemble, that usually turns out to be three or four spots on the clarinets and bassoons (Schoeps MK 4) and two KM-84's as area mics over the brasses. The spots are used very judiciously in the final mix if at all.

[sonare]

In the spirit of careful experimentation, my sessions today were miked with a "sort-of" ORTF (Schoeps bar with KC active cables) but usingMK21 subcardioids and MK2 omni flankers. The height was a little more than normal- almost 11ft on ORTF and 13 on flankers. I put up a widely spaced pair of TLM193 above the percussion but may not use those tracks.

The hall was not warm or flattering in the least. In fact, I would nominate it for the WORST space I have ever recorded in. Altiverb to the rescue!

After listening to a little of the group in the room, it was begging to NOT be recorded close in, so the MK21 were chosen to be further away (for more blend) than omnis. I'll put up a clip next week.

Rich

[G Davis]

I just recorded a university wind ensemble this past tuesday. I will be mixing it after I get back from a trip for the holidays. The group was okay... but a ton of coughing and chatting that were easily picked up between songs and some during the performance. I used 3 seperate stereo pairs. 2 AB over different sections of the ensemble and one XY. All were inexpensive mics (Shure KSM 44's and 27's) through the focusrite Octopre. It was my 3rd live remote recording session... I am quickly starting to love doing the remote thing. Anyway, hope your session turned out great!

[mlutthans]

OK, I have a weird wind ensemble experience to share.

There is a group in the Seattle area that I recorded for many years, and they moved from a very dry "multi-purpose" auditorium to a very, very dry "multi-purpose" auditorium. In the newer, dryer space, I tried two omnis, three omnis, and multiple ORTF and xy and ORTF with omni flanking combinations. Nothing was floating my boat, but the conductor was happy with all of the results. (I guess that was good...)

Anyway, I was called away on business suddenly, and had to make arrangements for the concert to be recorded in my absence. I spoke with one of the board members, and since there were no soloists on the upcoming date, asked if they would be okay with me waiving my fees in exchange for setting up the day before, having my contact person in the group come back and "push record," and I would come back in the next day and tear down. Not a problem. Since everybody had been happy with the assorted ORTF configurations I had done, I did an ORTF set-up with two Neumann KM184s physically clamped to a catwalk. (I had always hung them below the catwalk in the past.) My thinking was: if something is going to be ripped off, it'll be the cheapest mics I own, and they'll be hard to get access to!

When I ran off discs for the performers, I received several e-mails along the lines of, "That was the best recording I've heard in a long time. Well done!" Boy, was I floored! From that day on, I copied that set-up for each concert by this group, and it went great, MUCH TO MY SURPRISE. I've since used the KM184s on other wind groups, always with positive results. Again, not what I would have expected!

KM184s are awful, IMO, for string sections, but I guess they work okay on winds, proving that all mics have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[sonare]

Here's a clip of the session-- happy listening!

Rich

[Corran]

Georgia Southern University?

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Corran

Georgia Southern University?

Correct.

Rich

[Corran]

From your original question on this thread it sounded like something you don't always do. Was this new?

I have a few friends in GSU's wind ensemble so I will definitely be checking this out when I can (I'm out of town right now). I haven't had a chance but I was going to one day see if I could get some business at GSU since they are somewhat close to me - but are you kind of there already?

[NorseHorse]

Mmmmm... I felt the bass drum.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Corran

From your original question on this thread it sounded like something you don't always do. Was this new?

I normally do orchestras and was curious about what different folks were doing with wind ensembles.

I ended up NOT using the 193s in the rear of the ensemble.

Rich

[NorseHorse]

Thanks to Rich for starting this thread. The recording you posted is working as a reference for me at the moment. (Best wishes on the recovery.)

I'm in the midst of mixing a concert I recorded last night. University wind ensemble in a pretty large hall. The director asked for a mix of "near and far" miking so we could work on the sound afterwards. I placed a Schoeps CMTS 501 in M/S directly behind the conducter about 14ft in the air (near), a CROWN SASS mic high in the 8th row (far), plus two AT4050s in figure-8 on the percussion with the nulls towards the rest of the ensemble (nearer).

I'm not done yet and will be corresponding with the director this week, but I wanted to add a sample to the thread. The sample below is 501+compression/reverb+some AT4050, no SASS. I know Rich said he ended up not using the mics on the percussion in his sample, but this is the second time I've found them to be extremely helpful in rescuing the percussion from being too distant. (I'm still trying to figure out how his percussion jumps out so well in just the main pair!) I need to automate the gain on the percussion track, but I'll wait till I talk with the director.

Cheers!

[Corran]

Hey I played that piece last year...I can't remember the name now. I remember it was a cool piece, and there were some rippin' piccolo parts I think that I played (I'd like to hear your recording there, I find piccolo sticks out easily, or maybe it's my playing ).

Anyway, sounds really good man. You told us the mic setup, but what percentage of the sound is each pair?