Wind Ensemble Setups?

[rubycakes]

Radiant Joy by Steven Bryant

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

The sample below is 501+compression/reverb+some AT4050, no SASS.

Just to clarify, the sample is pretty much ALL Schoeps CMTS 501. The 4050s are in VERY lightly and only serve to give the percussion a little more definition.

[Corran]

Oh whoops, missed that.

Ah yes Radiant Joy, that's right. I love Steven Bryant's work. He wrote a piece for our wind ensemble some time ago if I remember.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I have been the assistant audio engineer (A2) on three recordings of the American Wind Symphony Orchestra conducted by Robert Austin Boudreau that was recorded at the Soldiers Sailors Memorial Hall in Pittsburgh, PA. Soldiers and Sailors Military Museum and Memorial. Two of the times I did it with the lead audio engineer from Sesame Street, Blake Norton and once with Jerry Bruck of Post Horn recordings. Since Jerry was the main importer of SCHOEPS microphones we had a whole lot to chose from. We finally selected two of the CCM-21LG which are sub cardioid and used them in X-Y in the middle of the hall. We used a couple of spot microphones where needed and everything was mixed down on a Sonosax mixer into two DAT recorders. When I did the recordings with Blake Norton we used Neumann and Schoeps microphones into a Studer audio console and into a Studer Tape Deck running at 15 ips. The hall is very live but sounds GREAT. The most critical factor in both recordings was the ensemble to microphone distance and that took some experimentation to get it right all three times. These recordings were done during the summer so there was lots of traffic noise and the building was still in use as a museum. Our "control room" was outside in the hall and was a very reverberant space. I learned a lot from these fine gentlemen about the fine art of recording a wind ensemble and each session took about three days to complete. The recordings came out GREAT and really showed off both the ensemble and the careful crafting of the audio engineers in getting a perfect sound in the hall. I was suppose to do this again a couple of years ago but the barge the AWSO normally play on was having some problems and all the money they had for the recording project had to go to the repairs. I would like to help out again but the conductor of the ensemble would be 82 this year and I am not even sure he is up for another recording session.

Times to remember....

[ebs.audio]

I know this is a bit of an old thread, but I figured you guys might want to know what our standard setup is when recording the US Marine Band in Washington.

For archival recordings of our concerts, we use an ORTF pair of MKH 800's about 7-8 feet behind the conductor, and about 10-12 feet up with MKH 20 flanks. When it comes time to make our annual CD, we add room mics (MKH 30 with the nulls pointed at the stage) and put spots on the trouble spots mentioned in this thread (harp, double bass, percussion, as well as saxes and french horns) but mix them in very slightly.

This gets us results that we're pretty happy with, but it's always fun to hear other ideas of how to approach this kind of ensemble for when we get to experiment.

[NorseHorse]

The core gear used by Mark Records (the most prolific label for symphonic band recordings) are two AKG C-414B TL-IIs and a Yamaha 01v mixer. These sometime augmented by another pair or spot mics. Other mics include 4006s, MKH-40s, AKG-460B, MD421.

Common processing includes Lexicon reverb and a Manley Massive Passive (also known as the Manley Active Passive among typo and QC enthusiasts).

Not sure if they've changed anything in the last year or two.

[sonare]

This weekend I am doing sessions with wind ensemble and will have an opportunity to compare MKH800 with 8020. I have recorded in this space several times now and have found:

1) Percussion spots are counterproductive thanks to the rear of the shell curving where the rear wall meets the ceiling resulting in the perc getting out QUITE well-- the spots made it a problem. Ditto for any other spots, such as string bass, where using a spot looked cool but the results were counter-musical.

2) Thanks to the total lack of acoustic ambience flankers do not really bring anything to the party other than a slight blurring of the imaging-- the original soundfile (a year back?!?) was a center pair of Mk21 in ORTF with flanks of Mk2. The last concert I did was the pair of 8020/MK2S comparison that another thread talked about. The conductor found no noticeable difference in the listening of the two setups, and he has very good ears.

3) it is best to try to "listen through" whatever you are getting and keep in mind what will be done in post-- in this case some Altiverb.

As engineers we tend to equate more gear with better sound, and often the musical result is the opposite. Having the strength of musical conviction to NOT use things is just as important. IMO.

Rich

[supoUSA]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

The core gear used by Mark Records (the most prolific label for symphonic band recordings) are two AKG C-414B TL-IIs and a Yamaha 01v mixer. These sometime augmented by another pair or spot mics. Other mics include 4006, AKG-460B, MD421.

Common processing includes Lexicon reverb and a Manley Massive Passive (also known as the Manley Active Passive among typo and QC enthusiasts).

Not sure if they've changed anything in the last year or two.

I would not consider Mark Records a standard for anything. Their recordings are never of a quality I would even label satisfactory.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

I know Bruce Leek has done a bunch of wind ensemble work using only a pr of MKH20. I have a couple of discs he did that way and they sound very nice to me.

Ditto. His work with Concordia and Messiah are very nice.

In case you're curious, his gear list is often listed in the liner notes:

Microphones: Sennheiser MKH20, Sennheiser MKH40, Audio Technica AT4049, Beyer M160
Microphone Pre-Amps: Millenia Media HV-3, FM Acoustics Class-Amps, Grace Design 801
Recording Console: Ramsa WRS4424 (modified by John Windt)
Power Amplifier: Threshold
Cables: MIT-CVT 2C/3D, MIT Z-Center Power Conditioning
Speakers: ATC SCM 20SL Monitors
Recorders: Tascam DA38
DAT Decks: Panasonic SV3800
Processor: Prism Sound AD124, Prism Sound MR2024T interface, Prism Sound DA-1
Reference Headphones: Sony MDR V6

[RDBDR]

Here is a bit of a recent (October 11, 2009) recording of the Concordia Santa Fe Ensemble performing at the St. Francis Auditorium with guest conductor Dr. Kevin Sedatole. This bit is from the 2nd movement of "Give Us This Day" by David Maslanka.

I used Rode NT2A mics in ORTF configuration about 12 ft up and 6 ft behind the conductor. The small piano was down off the stage about 6 ft in front and 10 ft to the right of the conductor. I used two DPA 4060s under the lid of the piano and added a touch of reverb to match them to the hall.

I also tried some AKG C 414 B-XLS mics in M/S and in a decca tree like arrangement but I don't think these sounded as good.

I think that the woodwinds would have balanced better if I had lowered the mics a bit.

Let me know what you think, ---rick

[Corran]

I recorded Give Us This Day a couple of concerts ago with the wind ensemble I play in (great piece).

To me it's just a little too distant sounding. What polar pattern were the Rode's set on? I'm surprised it sounds that distant using a traditional ORTF setup, unless the hall was really live?

I should note that I like wind ensembles to be drier and more close sounding than an orchestra. That's just my personal preference.

[RDBDR]

The NT2As were set on cardioid with the hi pass filter set to 40hz.

St. Francis Auditorium (in Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA) is a lovely, long and live hall with a lot of large wooden ceiling beams (vigas) spaced every 4 ft or so in the Pueblo Revival Style architecture. Here's a photo from a previous concert. The mic positions in this photo were the same as for the Maslanka recording, but the actual ORTF mics used were NT2As, not NT5s as seen in this photo.

---rick

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by RDBDR

I used Rode NT2A mics in ORTF configuration about 12 ft up and 6 ft behind the conductor. The small piano was down off the stage about 6 ft in front and 10 ft to the right of the conductor. I used two DPA 4060s under the lid of the piano and added a touch of reverb to match them to the hall.

I think that the woodwinds would have balanced better if I had lowered the mics a bit.

Hi Rick,

Thanks for posting the sample! I concur with you about lowering the main pair. Those clarinets are getting overpowered by the brass, which the hall really projects forward.

I like the sense of space, but something is off with how the 4060s are incorporated into the mix. It's noticeable on the ensemble sections, and very clear right around 1:07. The piano spots are not melding with the main pair in timbre or in imaging (sounds like two pianos). I'd play around with the mix a little more.

Related threads:
Soloist spot in Rodrigo´s Concierto de Aranjuez.
how can i mix spot mics in stereo main image?

[RDBDR]

Thanks for pointing me toward those related threads! Much there for me to think about and work on.

As you can see, I'm a new poster here - although I've been lurking, reading and learning from all you folks for about a year now. Somehow I missed those two threads ... or more likely, did not realize that they pertained to my recording situation.

I really appreciate how much I've learned, how much I'm still learning and how much I still expect to learn from this forum! Your willingness to share your knowledge and expertize so freely effects many more than you know.

Thanks all, ---rick

[Corran]

Here's a recent recording of a semi-wind ensemble (one on a part, not a large group, about 15-20 players).

I used a modded B&O BM-5 stereo ribbon about 2 feet behind the conductor and two Schoeps CMC6/MK2S mics spaced wide to the edges of the ensemble, about 30 ft. apart I guess. Then Studio Projects 828 pres -> HD24XR.

I think it turned out pretty well.

[sonare]

Interesting piece. What I am hearing is much more trombone and perc compared to the rest. Perchance were they in front of the left Schoeps?

Rich

[Corran]

Yeah they were to the left. It was that prominent in the hall though.

[sonare]

Then you have an opportunity to REALLY please the director by fixing poor balance and demonstrating the "magic" of recordings!

Rich

[guosh]

Haven't been recording for a while now due to illness and work, but I managed a session for my local university wind ensemble last night. Simple setup, just Rode NT5s in (what I think was) ORTF. The hall wasn't great, so I added a little reverb.

It's pretty standard fare, but I've been away from the scene for so long that I really enjoyed one of their pieces - Frank Tichelli's Sanctuary - and wanted to share it. Rusty ears are such a frightening prospect, but I hope it sounds decent enough and you guys enjoy it!