Hard Glass CD's & DPA4060 stereo miking techniques by Onno Scholtze

[Gaston69]

Hard Glass CD's & DPA4060 stereo miking techniques by Onno Scholtze

For the Dutch/Flemish readers, here is an article that has been released by HVT magazine you can buy also in addition a DEMO CD for 5,-Euros with sound samples.

[boojum]

Gaston, is there any way to obtain and English translation? My Flemish sucks. ;o)

[Gaston69]

I have asked Onno and he will send me an English version, but be patient because it can a little while.

Gaston

[JEGG]

Gaston:
Thanks for the PDF-I could read more of it than I thought!

Apologies if this has been asked and answered elsewhere:

I know he likes the 4060's

1. What does he think of the 4090?

2. What grid arrangement-or none-does he use with the 4060's?

[Gaston69]

This is a project Of Ad van Medevoort of Audioart, Marcel Croeze of Creato Audio and Onno Scholtze of WuWei Productions.



In this booklet you can find the background information about the specific properties of this particular medium and did we try to give you insight in the way we worked on up to normal cd CD material up to Hard Glass Material.

Remark by Marcel Croeze of Creato Audio

No good microphone can function properly without the following pre-amplifier of at least the same level of quality. There are high demands onsidering noise and micro-dynamic behaviour at all frequencies in the audio-spectrum plus several octaves to spare on the both side of this range. This we have to do to save all the tonal specifics of the instruments and their loudness differences to keep correctly and after this process the analogue information is ready to convert into the digital domain.

Ad van Medevoort and some information about the recording, the hardware and monitoring during the process of recording.

For me it was to aim for and prove that the CD by itself may not be the weakest part in a chain of audio for play back! Recording the various example's on this presentation programm was done with a microphone set -up where the boom mas made of very light and vibration- free material : carbonfibre to eliminate unwanted vibrations and resonances which could cause colourisation of the sound to be picked up a cause of lesser sound quality in many recordings!

To utilize the qualities of the microphones to its maximum Audioart has developped a very-high-quality pre-amplifier with matching AD convertor ,the vM 4060AD, built in. This piece of equipment has been constructed with audiophile and discrete components like bipolaire semiconductors, resistors and capacitors.All individual stages are set in class A modus. The gain is the only part adjustable. The DPA 4060's get their power supply from a sublime clean and perfect stabilized powersource for maximum signaltramsission.

The AD convertor used is the best one available at the moment: the Burr Brown T! which is suited for all formats in PCM and even DSD!




Onno Scholtze:

At first I started with test recordings usinga new microphone from Bruel and Kjaer "the 4060 "and later renamed as DPA 4060 of Danish Pro Audio and when I was about to retire, in the last recordings I did for POLYGRAM I simply brought these transducers along and used them, just to explore and I was surprised with the results: I got a spatial correct sound and a quality that totally convinced me of the new road to follow.During the sessions I recorded the tests on seperate recorders that had nothing to do with the regular production recording. I found that the quality of the microphone was totally infuenced by the sheer size of it.
The capsule of the mike is so small that the bodily shape of it cannot interfere with the pick-up pattern, every microphone is getting more unidirectional when the surface of the active capsule gets equal to the surfacediameter.The response of this element will show ringing-effects on the diafragm, which is a form of distortion in itself. There will be a preference for the frequency of this diameter. With these mike's this diameter is so small that the interference here will be way up IN in frquency-range compared to the mike's that we normally use. Over the years the listening public have accustomed itself to a ringing aroud 10 kHhzThe laymans attitude is a preference to use a mike as a magnifying glass. Imagine what a typical recording set up will do, 80 magnifying glasses will get you much detail over a field of 40 square feet with added non quality sound coming from all direction in an uncontrolled way from surfaces like wall's, floors, ceilings, other physical bodies as instruments, musicians and so on.........You cannot simply mix this all together and create a precise balance. The person that has to do this in e recording session is called a balance engineer!That has been the job decription of my functioning all these years. You may understand now ,why I am doing what I do now: Find a good hall, put up twoDPA's 4060 ,find the good spot to put them up, and use good recording equipment and make it possible to do some good monitoring of what you are involved in now! Monitoring is affecting your actually recording!



Sample 1:Maurice Ravel: Tzigane. (10:47)This recording has been made in two different halls and so with different acoustics : one hall is of good, traditional design, the other one is of more modern layout.; the difference is in more explicit reflections from the side walls, something very difficult to spot in a normal livingroom acousti c, here is the difference between loudspeaker and headphone monitoring very good discernerable! And must make it understandable to you, that to make things a bit clearer to you, you must make it clear for yourself, that it needs a bit tweaking by yourself or some one who knows what to do. Tricky business! But possible. Just follow the samples played to you on this sample recording: I may be able to explain to you what I hear in a controlled environment and maybe succesfully reach an understanding of what we have been doing in making this recording with the full support of Conductor and musicians in the Orchestra, quite a chance for you to be able to improve the listening environment! On this sample you will hear the soloist standing a bit left from the centre of the stage and the hall acoustics around you amanating from the stage and around you! It will help you to feel the musical balances between the players in the musical groups that were meant by the composer and were not to be mishandled by the guys, who were asked to do the recording and maybe troubled by some misconcepts how it should sound, misled by concepts how a speaker looks like! A monitor should be like KISS (keep it simple stupid)!

sample 2: is a wonderful rendering of a piece by Vincenzo Bellini: Costa Diva from the opera NORMA Here the singer stands up at the left side of the conductor, looking at him ,to see him react and give her moral and musical support and, in front of the woodwinds, the acoustics of the hall envelopes the soloist and gives a good impression of the hall and where the singer is, in stead of fooling you with artificial reverb which destroys completely the feeling of being there!

Sample 3: Is the wonderful presentation of the Sinfonie Concertante by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart which
is a composition for two string soloists, a violin and a alto-violin, plus full orchestra, quite wonderful in texture and great contrast and a absolut nightmare to record. Which artist is the most important to highlight out and who wins……Here you find a good sample how it can be done in a natural way.


Sample 4: Ravel is Master in creating this sort of sound in a good hall. And the orchestra helps it tremendously ,if the spirit is there…..This sample shows a good exhibition of this rendering of Mother Goose’s story: Ma Mere l’Oye




Sample 5: Saint Saens concerto for Cello and Orchestra. I realize that most of these recordings make some people uneasy with the concept of the soloist on the left in the orchestral balance..... Everybody listens to music in a precooked way, most of the time recorded by people who knew the trap they were falling in and did at least their best to circum-navigate the death trap! Which is a great achievement if they would be successful in trying. If they would succeed, would be greatly depended on the way they would invest their trust in the people that support them without hidden meanings. I mean, that so many people are so busy with all this that it seems to be very important. I think only for someone, who is so ignorant about all this that that person believes everything anybody tells him. I try only to provide you with sample’s and through these make it possible to you to make up your mind!

Sample 6: Peter Iljitsch TchaikovskyAcademic Festival Overture A good example ,to my taste, of what a good sample of a recording would sound like. A lot of artists have listened to my Sony CD 3000 mdr headphones and found this sort of sound very good and to their liking, I go more for the STAX Earspeakers, after many years of checking my balances on Quad electrostatic loudspeakers I find a system that is free of all extra’s like filtering in the monitoring-path like my Stax is doing, is a better solution to solve my problems…….Of course the included amplifier has been brought up to standard by using good electronics in a no nonsense way.........


Sample 7: GustavMahler. Sinfonie No1 "Titan" deel 4. " Stuermisch Bewegt." (18:24)
Last part in this demonstration. A very adequate representation of the hall where the recording took place! Attention for the position of the players if your equipment allows you to notice all this, like I do on my van Medevoort equipment at home!


Onno Scholtze

[sonare]

Recalling Mark Donahue's retelling of Onno insisting that foam be put on the inside of the aluminum stands that Soundmirror were using (to eliminate resonance)-- what stands has he found that eliminate the resonance that the ubiquitous aluminum stands have in the audible band?

Rich

[just.sounds]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Gaston:
Thanks for the PDF-I could read more of it than I thought!

Apologies if this has been asked and answered elsewhere:

I know he likes the 4060's

1. What does he think of the 4090?

2. What grid arrangement-or none-does he use with the 4060's?

1. don't know but i don't think he tried them yet but note that he uses custom designed electronics to power the mics so not the xlr DPA adapter. And that may be for a reason.

2. No grid


@ Sonare,

He does not use Aluminium stands anymore but carbon fibre.


He told me a story that he insisted on removing a metal fence in a well known British studio because there was resonance in it.

And they did

He told me also that that is why he does use small diafragm ( among other reasons) microphones because he dislikes capsule resonance.

[boojum]

Gaston - Thank you for the translation. Onno leaves nothing to chance. Every detail is examined. Good to know.

Thanks again.

[sonare]

I for one would really like to know his source of carbon fiber stands!

Rich

[aracu]

Carbon fibre rods can be ordered very cheap and attached to small stands.

[Gaston69]

If you are interested in a Carbon Fiber Mic stand for the DPA4060, please contact Gijs Treur email address akad@casema.nl


People who are interested in Onno's demo CD, please download the form from my original post.

Gaston

[just.sounds]

Great sources for carbon fibre are shops who sell supply's for building model airplanes and/or kites.

[Gaston69]

Did anybody apllied for the Demo CD?

[aracu]

The comparison mp3s of Dpa 4006 and 4060 and the mp3 of the accordion
ensemble which you posted are already sufficient enough evidence for me,
highly appreciated. I would like to eventually try substituting my Sennheiser
800's with the 4060 as near outriggers.

[rmlake]

Does anyone have contact information for Mr. Scholtze?

I am a graduate student writing my thesis on the ESP-Disk record label, and would love to speak with him concerning his experiences with the company. Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks!

[just.sounds]

WUWEI Audioproduction

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by Gaston69

Did anybody apllied for the Demo CD?

Is it still available?
Thanks
Larry

[studer58]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I thought that perhaps an easier and cheaper way to make a lightweight telescoping stand (the upright section at least) would be to buy a pre-existing carbon fibre or fibreglass telescoping fishing rod (look up Shimano or Shakespeare brands) and remove the 'eyes' that the fishing line passes through, perhaps by snipping or filing them off then gently grinding them back for smoothness. The steel ferrules would probably need to be left on for strengthening the end sections ? You'd end up with a strong upright rod which could be fine-tuned for height. Problems exist however..such as how to attach it to a base securely, and how to affix a t-bar to the top (although Onno and Petrus seem to have solved the latter with their carbon fibre poles) Fishing rods attain their strength by an ability to bend in response to fish weight, which is not an attribute we value in a mic stand ! The attraction of the fishing rod idea is that height can be quickly adjusted by a simple 'twist of the wrist' to the individual sections. In previous times telescopic rods were made only up to around 6 feet in length, but I believe now you can buy them in 12 foot or even longer versions. I wonder however if the 'wrist twist' alone would be sufficient to maintain their height...you'd hate to have a section or several come sliding/crashing down during a concert, along with an expensive pair of mics !! Has anyone visited their local fishing rod shop to check the viability of this mad idea ?

[chris319]

McMaster-Carr

[0VU]

Originally Posted by studer58

Has anyone visited their local fishing rod shop to check the viability of this mad idea ?

Yes.

Well, kind of.

You can buy fishing rod 'blanks' - the carbon fibre telescoping sections alone, without any metal fittings - being sold as 'wind-sock/flag poles/masts/whips' on eBay or at music festivals/country fairs and the like where they're sold for people to fly ..er.. wind-socks and flags from at festivals or on beaches/camp-sites. Quite useful for finding your friends/tent on a crowded beach/site etc. from a distance. Or so I'm told.

The longest I've seen are 11 metres but I daresay there are longer ones available.



Taking the 9m poles I bought as an example, the good news is:

that they're quite cheap (I paid a little under £7 each for five, 9m poles) and a good source of some parts.

when I removed the top section, the next one down had an end diameter which is a firm friction fit into a 3/8" mic clip. I added some epoxy to be sure and fixed some Schoeps SGM clips to the ends of the rods to take Schoeps CCMs or other similar size/weight miniature mics/capsules on extension cables. (Much more weight can make the whole thing rather springy ime.) (Different lenght/makes of pole might not be the same diameters per section.)

with care, and some modification to the mic clips, it was possible to route a thin Schoeps CCM type cable up the inside of the tubes so making for a neat installation. (However, it's not removable once the connectors are fitted.) Another option is to make some sliders (I used dense foam to line sections of a larger carbon fibre tube with a jubilee clip round the tube to which I attached an SGM clip). There's enough friction in the foam to hold the outer tube at any position/angle along the rod so I can slide mics along the tubes for different 'Tree' spacings. (Bear in mind that the rod sections are tapered so the sliders are a tighter fit at one end than the other.)

the length of the second section down was ideal to use as a limb of a Decca Tree mount


The bad news is:

The top section is very small diameter and too flexible to be of much use for anything (I discarded it)

a lot of the lower sections are very large diameter and of limited use as they're quite visually obtrusive for their purpose, compared to the steel tubes of a 'normal' mic stand.

whilst they do telescope and a simple twist will lock them quite securely - for the paranoid/safety conscious a wrap of gaffer or PVC tape adds a measure of additional security - they are not really very adjustable for height. My 9m poles are in (iirr) 8 sections and they only lock firmly at full extension of each section, so are adjustable only in roughly 1m increments - not ideal if you want some fine adjustment. I only really use the full length of the poles for space mics or other non height-critical applications.

They are, of course, rather flexible which as you point out can be a problem. I usually use these poles vertically, either clamped to structure to suspend CCMs from lighting gantries and the like (I had some widgits made which allow me to adjust the angle of the mic from above using a wire down the inside of the pole - which also serves as a safety line to stop bits of pole falling if somehow they could pull out of their telescoping section (incredibly unlikely!)), or as vertical upright supports for single CCM sized mics. Or I use one or two of the sections to make Decca Tree mounts or long skinny, lightweight booms for boom stands. More than one or two sections, or mics heavier than a CCM (or similar do make the stand spring about rather problematically).

Some of the colour schemes can be rather ....er... vibrant! Getting all black, or some other muted colour, can be harder.


So it's a very mixed bag. The very tops of such poles are imo too whippy and thin to be very useful, and the bottom sections can be too large a diameter to be much use and the height adjustment possibilities are rather limited. The poles are ok in vertical use with lightweight loads like single CCMs/4060s (actually the very tops would probably be quite good for 4060s) but generally are rather springy for use at any angle other than vertical.

Given that the sectional diamters would be dependent upon the overall length of the pole, shorter poles might yield more useful sevtions than the long ones I bought as their tubes probably don't go from as small (about 2.5mm) to as large (about 55mm). Overall I feel I got good value for money out of the ones I bought, even though about 60% of each pole is only used a few times a year.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by studer58

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I thought that perhaps an easier and cheaper way to make a lightweight telescoping stand (the upright section at least) would be to buy a pre-existing carbon fibre or fibreglass telescoping fishing rod (look up Shimano or Shakespeare brands) and remove the 'eyes' that the fishing line passes through, perhaps by snipping or filing them off then gently grinding them back for smoothness. The steel ferrules would probably need to be left on for strengthening the end sections ? You'd end up with a strong upright rod which could be fine-tuned for height. Problems exist however..such as how to attach it to a base securely, and how to affix a t-bar to the top (although Onno and Petrus seem to have solved the latter with their carbon fibre poles) Fishing rods attain their strength by an ability to bend in response to fish weight, which is not an attribute we value in a mic stand ! The attraction of the fishing rod idea is that height can be quickly adjusted by a simple 'twist of the wrist' to the individual sections. In previous times telescopic rods were made only up to around 6 feet in length, but I believe now you can buy them in 12 foot or even longer versions. I wonder however if the 'wrist twist' alone would be sufficient to maintain their height...you'd hate to have a section or several come sliding/crashing down during a concert, along with an expensive pair of mics !! Has anyone visited their local fishing rod shop to check the viability of this mad idea ?

Petrus had a post with pics on how to make these stands from carbon fiber. It is very easy. Just buy the pieces at a kite shop. Get three and telescope them and use an "O" ring to stop further telescoping. Petrus made a very elegant stand. I just use gaffer tape to attach the bottom-most piece to a regular tripod mic stand. You will need some kite pieces for the horizontal piece to rest in and for the tips. If I can do it, so can you.

Check the threads on here on the stands.


DIY ONNO mic stand with carbon fiber

very light & elegant Carbon Fiber Mic Stand for DPA4060

[David Spearritt]

Kite Building Graphite & Fiberglass Tube
Kite Spars and Rods
http://www.goodwinds.com/goodwinds/m...ultrudedcarbon

[boojum]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Kite Building Graphite & Fiberglass Tube
Kite Spars and Rods
Goodwinds Pultruded Carbon Tubes

Gearslutz Remote and Location recording where "go fly a kite" means more than you might think.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by 0VU

You can buy fishing rod 'blanks' - the carbon fibre telescoping sections alone, without any metal fittings - being sold as 'wind-sock/flag poles/masts/whips'

The bad news is: The top section is very small diameter and too flexible to be of much use for anything (I discarded it)

a lot of the lower sections are very large diameter and of limited use as they're quite visually obtrusive for their purpose, compared to the steel tubes of a 'normal' mic stand.

Sounds like these are fibreglass or largely fibreglass which is much more flexible than carbon fibre and so not ideal for mic stands which don't have to store strain energy like a fishing rod.

The Pultruded carbon kite spars are linear carbon fibres and are much stiffer than steel. Really straight as well over long segments and ideal for mounting 4060's.

http://www.goodwinds.com/goodwinds/m...ultrudedcarbon

[studer58]

Thanks David, the Pultruded carbon fibre looks like the best bet since it has the stiffness and non-flexure that tends to rule out the fishing rod idea (also because the fishing rod is by nature tapered, so the sections must be fully extended in order to lock together ..therefore there's no fine tuning of cms/inches up or down, and hence useless of our purposes). Sorry, it was a late night "great new idea" posting on my part, so ignore the fishing rod scenario altogether. Now.... if we could just source enough of the right fittings to make these Pultruded kite sections viable as mic stands, we could be onto a winner. I suspect a flat, heavy-ish base would be mandatory for stability. The 'right fittings' would have to include some sort of twist grip collar for each rod section, to allow for fast yet secure height adjustment. They can do them for broom and floor-mop handle, we just need a miniaturized version for carbon fibre tubes !

[boojum]

Originally Posted by studer58

I suspect a flat, heavy-ish base would be mandatory for stability. The 'right fittings' would have to include some sort of twist grip collar for each rod section, to allow for fast yet secure height adjustment. They can do them for broom and floor-mop handle, we just need a miniaturized version for carbon fibre tubes !

Just "O" rings. Check the Petrus link.

DIY ONNO mic stand with carbon fiber

This wheel has been invented. You need only follow the directions to build another.

[studer58]

Thanks for that highlight boojum, I'd skipped over the O ring part in my reading of Petrus' contribution. So to fine tune height I'm guessing you'd simply slide the O ring up or down the top stand tube and then jam the 2 tubes together for a tight friction fit ? I'm so used to twist-locking collars on regular stands that the idea of O rings sounds a little 'dodgy'....but then we are talking about a whole new paradigm of lightness here, and as long as the top t-bar isn't bearing much 'hardware mass' it should be fine ?
Thanks again

[Petrus]

As long as the mics are featherweight like DPA 4060 silicone O-rings will hold the weight. If you are paranoid just add a fingernail sized piece of black tape to the thinner tube so that it won't even fit inside the lower one.

One thing I have noticed with the bigger carbon tubes: before applying epoxy you must clean all dust away from the inner surface with a solvent, or even epoxy will not stick. One of my mic screw wood plugs became undone because of this oversight.

The lower tube should be strengthened at the ends a bit by wrapping one layer of 100-120 gram fiberglass weave around it + epoxy. Carbon tubes split easily* and this is the only place where it could cause damage. It is a good idea to dab some epoxy to all tube ends as microscopic splinters are nasty.

*) those without a fishing rod -like weave on the surface.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by studer58

Thanks for that highlight boojum, I'd skipped over the O ring part in my reading of Petrus' contribution. So to fine tune height I'm guessing you'd simply slide the O ring up or down the top stand tube and then jam the 2 tubes together for a tight friction fit ? I'm so used to twist-locking collars on regular stands that the idea of O rings sounds a little 'dodgy'....but then we are talking about a whole new paradigm of lightness here, and as long as the top t-bar isn't bearing much 'hardware mass' it should be fine ?
Thanks again

I fit the tubes to the height I want and then set the O-ring at the juncture of the two tubes. I do this at both junctures. There is no real weight to bear beyond the weight of the graphite tubes, which is negligible at best. Few complaints about "line of sight" impingement, either. I had the rig mistaken for a microwave antenna broadcasting the event to a remote site. My whole rig is four sticks, well two tubes, two rods, of carbon fiber. My crosspiece is a bit flimsy so I fix that with a dab of gaffers tape. Likewise, I attach the 4061's with a dab, too.

EZ! Thank you, Petrus, for showing the way.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by boojum

Few complaints about "line of sight" impingement, either. I had the rig mistaken for a microwave antenna broadcasting the event to a remote site. My whole rig is four sticks, well two tubes, two rods, of carbon fiber.

Hey, boojum.

So what's the total height of this stand and what's the outside diameter of the shaft? And it's black?

Just wondering as I've come up with my own thin stand and I'm wondering how yours compares.