which pre amps for josephson c617

[~ufo~]

I've been looking around the web for mics that will allow me to record very softly plucked acoustic guitar with an ambient pair, say 5-10' away generally, and have noise not be a problem.

So I've basically been comparing self noise and sensitivity specs, which brings me to a secondary question: is self noise in mics an absolute measure or is it relative to its sensitivity, in other words: will two mics w/ the same self noise but different sensitivity output the same level of noise or will the noise floor of the most sensitive mic be lower in practice because of its higher sensitivity ? ? ? I'm leaning towards the latter but, that somehow seems a bit too good to be true...

back to the main question: In my quest I found the DPA 4041 LDCs which just have staggering specs (90mV/Pa sensitivity against 7dBA max self noise) but then I saw the price tag...... waaay out of my league at the moment.

so the next best thing I could find, spec wise, are the josephsons with 66mV/Pa against 14dBA self noise, which I can barely afford at the moment but for which I would take the plunge immediately if they prove to be fit for the task laid out for them.

the question that has come forth from this is: are my best pre-amps quiet enough to be a good match to these mics and if not, what's the league I need to look into?
seeing as the josephsons have a very high output, they won't need as much gain as another, but capturing softly plucked acoustic guitar from 5-10' away is quite a test.

My best mic pres are: Studio Technologies MicPreEminence (upgraded by AU) and Telefunken V376, both give about the same amount of noise when cranked full up, however the ST gives about 68dB gain max against the Telefunken's 76dB so the latter is quite a bit more quiet.

So I hope some of you can shed some light on my conundrum.
will these mics get me there alone or would I be casting pearls before swine preamps, noise wise...

thanks in advance!

[jigsawlogic]

Your quest for a perfect mic is unfortunately ahead of the curve of mic perfection itself. 5 to 10 feet away for a mic to pick up finger-style guitar? At that distance, you MUST filter in at least as much noise as occurs in a war veteran's daily untold biography.

[~ufo~]

to be fair I should add that I would also have one or two close mics up....

but, when I push up the ambient faders I don't want to push up truckloads of noise too.
that has been my problem thusfar with my gt33 mics and before those, C1000s, granted, the latter are probably more ill fitted to the task than sm57s.

I'd like to have the option to use the ambients as base and push the close mics up just a bit to add some presence, not using the close as base and adding just a mere bit of ambience...

there's an ocean raging on my current ambient tracks though

[nosebleedaudio]

Have you measured the noise floor in your room?
10 feet away from a very low level signal is a HUGE challenge...
Your ambient noise will have to be in the NC10 range or better...

[~ufo~]

haven't measured it no, but as long as I don't have loud sources in the adjacent rooms, it's quieter than the noise in my ears on this weary day, which seems alarming by itself

anywho, in practice the mics will be more like 5' with very low level playing but still.
or sometimes I like to do an AB like overhead for acoustic guitar.
but I'd like to at least have mics and pres that allow me to capture real low level detail.
of course, lowering one noisefloor will always reveal another, so a holy grail it shall surely be.

[nosebleedaudio]

Forgot to add that the 617 has good specs, low noise and high output...
So this is a good start...

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by ~ufo~

haven't measured it no, but as long as I don't have loud sources in the adjacent rooms, it's quieter than the noise in my ears on this weary day, which seems alarming by itself

anywho, in practice the mics will be more like 5' with very low level playing but still.
or sometimes I like to do an AB like overhead for acoustic guitar.
but I'd like to at least have mics and pres that allow me to capture real low level detail.
of course, lowering one noisefloor will always reveal another, so a holy grail it shall surely be.

The fact is a good mic will pick up low frequencies FAR better than we can hear them...
Trust me on this, take the best mic/pre you have crank it to 11 and record and see what you get.
Even a low end mic picks up lows better than we hear, and are we NOT glad...
Put a SPL meter in your car one day and see what I mean...
My point is the room noise HAS to be low, IM NOT talking only about outside noise..

[jujufactory]

Originally Posted by jigsawlogic

Your quest for a perfect mic is unfortunately ahead of the curve of mic perfection itself. 5 to 10 feet away for a mic to pick up finger-style guitar? At that distance, you MUST filter in at least as much noise as occurs in a war veteran's daily untold biography.

Unless your microphone looks like a Donkey's Dick.

[seaneldon]

Originally Posted by jigsawlogic

Your quest for a perfect mic is unfortunately ahead of the curve of mic perfection itself. 5 to 10 feet away for a mic to pick up finger-style guitar? At that distance, you MUST filter in at least as much noise as occurs in a war veteran's daily untold biography.

If you'd ever been in the same room as a Josephson C617 you would not say this. Not that it's perfect, but...I dunno, it's damn close for this kind of application!

I use C617's as distant acoustic mics, vocal ambiance mics (who needs reverb when you've got a huge warehouse?), and drum room mics. They really don't need much gain at all even with soft guitars at 5 feet away. 10 feet might be overkill and not exactly ideal, but I've never put them 10 feet away unless it was on a loud drum kit, so what do I know?

If you're going all out, call Ulf at Audio Dog in Sweden and ask to listen to an NPNG mic preamp with the C617's. Fuh-King-Scary.

[MichaelPatrick]

Yes, these mics have a very hot output, so you'll need a noisy preamp to get noise at the end of your chain.

The comment about room quality is dead on. The C617s hear everything.

Here's a clip I just posted of orchestra with a piano solo, using just two C617s for the orchestra and room. It may give you an idea what they can do.

Most realistic recording...?

[Adebar]

The combination Josephson C617 and Forssell SMP-2 is a really good one. I used that in my last 2 recordings and think the Forssell is perfect to answer the main question, "which preamp for the C617".

The C617 takes about 6 to 7 mA. That is within the specs for phantom power but sometimes to much for not well designed preamps. There are especially some vintage preamps having problems to deliver more than 4 mA. For the Forssell the current of 7 mA is no problem at all.

[Joram]

Why wouldn't you use a DPA HMA5000 Mic preamp for the Josephson mic?

[MichaelPatrick]

+1 absolutely

Watch out for low frequencies. This combination is like a barometer -- the spectrum is virtually flat from ~DC to the stratosphere. Electronic noise sources will be well under the acoustic floor allowing you to hear the room breathing with phenomenal accuracy.

Originally Posted by Adebar

The combination Josephson C617 and Forssell SMP-2 is a really good one. I used that in my last 2 recordings and think the Forssell is perfect to answer the main question, "which preamp for the C617".

[nosebleedaudio]

I would say the JM-130 would sound very good as well...
Better HF response at high gain than the Forssell...
And very quiet as well.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

I would say the JM-130 would sound very good as well...
Better HF response at high gain than the Forssell...
And very quiet as well.

Mike, can you describe the 130 a little?

I've been intrigued but haven't seen enough comments on it yet to make me want to try it out. I want to hear from people who do acoustic music in nice spaces. I took a look at your website but the glowing comments there are from people who don't record whole shows with just a few mics. They are studio trackers.

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by Joram

Why wouldn't you use a DPA HMA5000 Mic preamp for the Josephson mic?

Wrong voltage. 130V vs. 200V, if memory serves.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[seaneldon]

Originally Posted by David Rick

Wrong voltage. 130V vs. 200V, if memory serves.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

Yes, but the capsule polarization happens with a DC-step-up in the mic. The C617 is powered with 48V phantom.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Mike, can you describe the 130 a little?

I've been intrigued but haven't seen enough comments on it yet to make me want to try it out. I want to hear from people who do acoustic music in nice spaces. I took a look at your website but the glowing comments there are from people who don't record whole shows with just a few mics. They are studio trackers.

If I described it I don't see what that would prove, but it is clean, detailed, very quiet, high headroom/dynamic range with a little warmth "with iron output"...
So the Yellowjackets is just a bunch of "studio trackers"...

Hudson "Plush" checked it out...

[~ufo~]

well if Imma buy the josephsons I won't have any budget left for a new stereo pre in the 2k range. I hope my Studio Tech pre will do. I shall find out when I test the mics early january.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

If I described it I don't see what that would prove, but it is clean, detailed, very quiet, high headroom/dynamic range with a little warmth "with iron output"...
So the Yellowjackets is just a bunch of "studio trackers"...

Hudson "Plush" checked it out...

No need to go defensive. I just scope gear out a bit before laying out nearly two thousand USD.

You mentioned Plush. You've got stiff competition there from DAV which he loves for classical recording, at half the cost per channel. I've got DAV, Forssell, Grace, DACS, Focusrite Red and LaChapell. I also have an open mind, but I need more to go on. Any preamp I buy needs to bring something new that I don't already have. So what's the JM-130 got?

Why don't you send one to Ivo for review or ask Plush to write up how it compares with DAV BG series? That would go a long way with me and probably also help others understand why it's unique in this crowded field of options.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

No need to go defensive. I just scope gear out a bit before laying out nearly two thousand USD.

You mentioned Plush. You've got stiff competition there from DAV which he loves for classical recording, at half the cost per channel. I've got DAV, Forssell, Grace, DACS, Focusrite Red and LaChapell. I also have an open mind, but I need more to go on. Any preamp I buy needs to bring something new that I don't already have. So what's the JM-130 got?

Why don't you send one to Ivo for review or ask Plush to write up how it compares with DAV BG series? That would go a long way with me and probably also help others understand why it's unique in this crowded field of options.

Was not on the defense, have ask Plush several times and will quit at that...

I simply ask you in an email if you would like to check it out, nothing more...
I cannot afford to send this pre to every engineer in the business; I have picked several top ones in different areas...

The JM-130 is more money than the DAV for several GOOD reasons, input /output transformers, discrete amp, hand wired point to point, ect...
How much was the Focusrite Red???

[Joram]

Regarding the DPA HMA5000 Mic preamp...

Originally Posted by seaneldon

Yes, but the capsule polarization happens with a DC-step-up in the mic..

Not quite...you need an extra adapter with the DPA pre-amp: 130V > 48 V

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Joram

Why wouldn't you use a DPA HMA5000 Mic preamp for the Josephson mic?

There was a comparison with Apogee MiniMP on organ recorded with DPA 4006s here: http://recording.org/ftopict-48913.html. The difference was very subtle, Apogee being rather better.

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

Yes, but the capsule polarization happens with a DC-step-up in the mic. The C617 is powered with 48V phantom.

My bad. I was thinking about the Gefell capsules themselves.

David

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Was not on the defense, have ask Plush several times and will quit at that...

I simply ask you in an email if you would like to check it out, nothing more...
I cannot afford to send this pre to every engineer in the business; I have picked several top ones in different areas...

The JM-130 is more money than the DAV for several GOOD reasons, input /output transformers, discrete amp, hand wired point to point, ect...
How much was the Focusrite Red???

I got my used Red 8 in great condition for $1K. Descriptions make it seem much like the JM-130; it has transformers, clean sound, and so on.

I'd be glad to try one and to learn about it from people who are experienced and discerning. It helps to hear from people who have a solid baseline, people into clean acoustic recording. There are lots of them here. I'm still reading and waiting to hear clips. If you want me to send clips send a unit on loan and I'll post some.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I got my used Red 8 in great condition for $1K. Descriptions make it seem much like the JM-130; it has transformers, clean sound, and so on.

I'd be glad to try one and to learn about it from people who are experienced and discerning. It helps to hear from people who have a solid baseline, people into clean acoustic recording. There are lots of them here. I'm still reading and waiting to hear clips. If you want me to send clips send a unit on loan and I'll post some.

I use the best input transformer I know of, also the most expensive, not all transformers are the same, and not just distortion, or input capabilities or frequency response...
This is where specs tell a lot, max. input with OUT pad...
You would not consider Al Schmitt to be discerning?
If I was to spend hours recording say a Steinway and sounded great to me, some/most would say; doesn't tell me much, or not the type of piano sound I like, or the mic, mic placement was not ideal ect...

This reminds me of the "samples" done by James Lugo a while back, no doubt he and others spent SEVERAL hours recording, editing, posting, reposting to have only a few that could judge by what they heard...

Not saying it's worthless, but every good engineer I know wants to hear the pre, mic, compressor ect in THEIR space, on THEIR monitors ect to make a good decision...

No doubt you would be one of those engineers...