Bluegrass/Folk Insrument Tips & Tricks

[will84]

Originally Posted by BluegrassDan

Lots of phasing problems could occur, you won't have any real control over panning while mixing, and unless your room really sounds good, you're gonna hear it, especially after you keep adding instruments.

That makes sense. My room, though somewhat improved, is far from optimal but it's all we've got. The only stereo micing I plan on doing are X-Y on the banjo, which will be summed to mono and panned, and the guitar, both of which are being tracked live generally.

I really like the 441 on most banjos.

I'm sure I'll try the 441 at some point, along with others... trying to get varied (good!) sounds on various tracks.

More than anything, make your session fun and easy for the performers. It's all about the MUSIC!

Agreed! Luckily we're all old friends, and since it's at my house, the comfort level should be up. Probably a table in the middle of the room for candles and their drinks... *away* from the gear, of course!

[will84]

Tonight's the first session. We'll be live-tracking rhythm guitar, banjo, and mandolin. Sunday I got the room and initial mic choices set up. The "gobos" are objects covered in blankets and foam that I haven't put up for soundproofing yet (the walls are mostly covered with it). Initial setup is...

GTRlt/GTRrt: NT5x2, one at 12th fret, one over shoulder, both through API 512c's, both HPF to 100
BNJlo (X-Y): 421 at resonator -> API 512c -> 1176 (slow-to-mild attack/release)
BNJhi (X-Y): 451 at neck/body joint -> 512c -> HPF to 150
MND: M160 -> Purple Biz MK -> HPF to 200

Though I don't have a mandolin around, I do have two acoustic guitars and a cheapy banjo to use for testing purposes. Sounds like a pretty good starting place now that I've tweaked. Each mic is getting bleed at -30 to -20db. All three "stations" are aimed at the center of the room and are decently in each other's null points.

[will84]

Okay, a post-session update, specifically for those who wanted to know how the micing turned out...

M160 on mandolin was great. It maintained body even after HPF and tamed both transients and overhyped high freqs. Now if we could only convince the guy to find mando that isn't a POS

421/451 X-Y combo on the banjo was also nice, especially once I got the player to be more aggressive. The song is fast, fairly unrelenting as far as this kind of music goes, so I encouraged them to imagine themselves playing live -- really going for it. Once he started digging into the banjo, we got an even better tone, getting about 5db of compression on the resonator mic (421) for consistant punch while the 451 provided air/strings/definition.

NT5s were okay on guitar. In the future, depending on the song, I may opt for just my other 451 or doing stereo with it and the 414 or another larger mic in an X-Y in front.

All in all, still some annoying frequencies to be cut, but overall much improved from what I had to start with mix-wise on the last album. Bleed was minimal to the point that we would be able to redub banjo if necessary (one real good take was before he started getting aggressive, which we preferred from the later takes).

[BluegrassDan]

Glad you had good luck. I like the beyer 160. I like it on mandos.

[will84]

Originally Posted by BluegrassDan

Glad you had good luck. I like the beyer 160. I like it on mandos.

Thanks Dan. Everything I've tested it on so far has been very useable, in many cases super-thick. Mando, a good bright acoustic guitar, paired with a 421 and SM57 on electric guitar (the Eddie Kramer trio, at least who I got it from through reading), and drum overhead in a small, not-great room all came back cool in varying degrees... but always cool

So glad I finally got this classic! I want another already. And with the SM7 I got recently, an AEA Ribbon Pre would probably be a good investment sometime.

[BluegrassDan]

Originally Posted by will84

Thanks Dan. Everything I've tested it on so far has been very useable, in many cases super-thick. Mando, a good bright acoustic guitar, paired with a 421 and SM57 on electric guitar (the Eddie Kramer trio, at least who I got it from through reading), and drum overhead in a small, not-great room all came back cool in varying degrees... but always cool

So glad I finally got this classic! I want another already. And with the SM7 I got recently, an AEA Ribbon Pre would probably be a good investment sometime.

I don't really think the AEA ribbon pre is all that special. Its pretty unflattering IMHO.

Rhonda Vincent's mandolin sounded pretty good recorded with a 160. Her Smith Creek mando is really loud and cuts through a mix.

[will84]

Originally Posted by BluegrassDan

I don't really think the AEA ribbon pre is all that special. Its pretty unflattering IMHO.

Do you personally (I'm sure there are plenty of threads here discussing it but am interested in your own experience) have a preamp model you prefer for ribbon mics based on quietness? So far I've had enough gain for decent signals without a ridiculous amount of noise but it could improve, which is why I mentioned the AEA pre, an opinion based purely on reviews I've read elsewhere.

[BluegrassDan]

We've used the beyer through API and GML with great results. Also used the AEA R88 through an AEA pre, Vintech 1073, and an ADL 600.

I'm not saying that the AEA is not a decent pre, I just wouldn't spend money for one. You can get tons of signal out of that API with little noise.

Maybe consider using an AEA pre if you're recording an orchestra or choir with a pair of ribbon mics where you'll need TONS of gain. For Bluegrass, you should be fine.

I certainly wouldn't buy an AEA pre just for Bluegrass. I'd spend it on something else.

[GZsound]

I just found this thread.. Very interesting suggestions.

I specialize in recording bluegrass and have done so for the last ten years.

I have been using a Beyer M260 on banjo for a couple years with good results. It's an older mic I bought in 1974 and doesn't have the high pass filter installed in it like the new one. Last year I had Beyer rebuild it for me since the magnet was getting tired.

I just finished a three day festival with JD Crowe, Dailey and Vincent, Dan Tyminsky, Ralph Stanley, Longview and several other national bands on stage. The LD mic of choice was a Rode NT2 or an Audix SCX-25, which sounded great.

We miced most instruments with Audix I5 or Shure SM57's except in a couple of rare instances where we used Octava MC-012 on mandolin and guitar.

In the studio, I normally use a click track and record all the basic instrument tracks at the same time to keep the band sounding "organic".. we overdub the breaks and vocals.

I haven't found that using a click sucks the life out of the songs..quite the opposite. It gives the bass player a guide to drive the beat and keeps the bands on time, which is a common problem with most regional bands.

[Roland]

I would firstly make the point that recording the group individually will suck the life out of the project, if you are half decent musicians I would only ever contemplate recording the band all together, if you are not, recording the band individually to a click won't make a jot of difference.

Personally speaking, I would want to record all these instruments relatively close miked with quality condensors/ribbons. Dynamics will work at a pinch, eg someone above mentioned using the 441 on Banjo, that's a reasonable possibility if you don't have enough condensors. The beyer would work on violin, however, the 160 is a little "cool" sounding as ribbons go, so consider that if you use it. The 414 would work on the bass, see how the others would go on the mandolin, banjo and guitars.

Regards


Roland

[Roland]

I went back and re-read a couple of earlier posts and thought of a couple of other thing's I'd add to the above. I think that you are trying to over think the job. You should be able to get a good sound using a single mic on any of these instruments, couple that together with a good live performance feel it could be a real winner.

Regards


Roland

[hughshouse]

The only two mic set up I have found useful for banjo is for open-back models, one in front and one in the back. Mic choices need to be made pursuant to the players technique and instrument's sonic capability. For models with resonators no two banjos will sound exactly alike so move around the room while the player is playing and find the best spot to capture the sound. Mics of choice for me are RE20 if it is up close and Rode K2, with NOS tube, set in cardioid if the best spot is more than 12 inches out in front. I strongly recommend laying the bass tracks seperately in a large room with a high celling if possible. These same two mics work well for bass capture. RE20 at or around the sound hole or the K2, in fig. 8 pattern, 1 foot above the floor about 6-8 ft. from the bass. Try both and move them around to see where you get the best sound.
I use either an AT4060 or AT4047 or an SM7 on Mando. As for guitar your optons are largely determined by whether you are recording a "plosive gourd" or a hot box-- If it is a D28 boomy gourd an AT2500 stereo kick drum mic will work wonders. If you are lucky enough to be working with a really good guitar and an accomplished player, any number of choices will sound great.
Hugh

[balaperdida]

I had mandolin trouble a few years back and sought some gearslut assistance, some of which you might find helpful.

Stalking the wild mandolin

For banjo, I've had nice luck with removing the resonator's back-plate and putting an Audix lollypop mic about about half a foot behind the player's picking elbow, aimed at the skin under the banjo's bridge. Out front, I used a Royer 121 close to the neck-resonator joint, but as far away from the player's noisy-ass fingers as I could get.

I'll spare you any advice on recording double-bass, as I'm still less than enthused by my own attempts at doing so!

Good luck!

Dan

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by hughshouse

The only two mic set up I have found useful for banjo is for open-back models, one in front and one in the back. Mic choices need to be made pursuant to the players technique and instrument's sonic capability. For models with resonators no two banjos will sound exactly alike so move around the room while the player is playing and find the best spot to capture the sound. Mics of choice for me are RE20 if it is up close and Rode K2, with NOS tube, set in cardioid if the best spot is more than 12 inches out in front. I strongly recommend laying the bass tracks seperately in a large room with a high celling if possible. These same two mics work well for bass capture. RE20 at or around the sound hole or the K2, in fig. 8 pattern, 1 foot above the floor about 6-8 ft. from the bass. Try both and move them around to see where you get the best sound.
I use either an AT4060 or AT4047 or an SM7 on Mando. As for guitar your optons are largely determined by whether you are recording a "plosive gourd" or a hot box-- If it is a D28 boomy gourd an AT2500 stereo kick drum mic will work wonders. If you are lucky enough to be working with a really good guitar and an accomplished player, any number of choices will sound great.
Hugh

Interesting that you like the RE20 on banjo. I have tried an RE20 and getting it close resulted in a lot of "plicky" pick noise. Moving it back created a rather dry sound. I haven't tried it on mando yet.

I eventually landed on my M260 as my go-to mic for banjo. About a foot away seems to work best.

[Jimbo]

Pick noise can be attenuated by using cobalt plated picks.
Cobalt Plated Fingerpicks from Jante Davis Music - The Banjo Store stocks several popular models that have been cobalt plated by a third party.

It's not a complete solution, and they cost more. However, in my experience they last longer, play easier, and sound better.

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Pick noise can be attenuated by using cobalt plated picks.
Janet Davis Music The Banjo Store Banjos, Dobros, Mandolins, Autoharps, Guitars, Fiddles, Bluegrass, and more! stocks several popular models that have been cobalt plated by a third party.

It's not a complete solution, and they cost more. However, in my experience they last longer, play easier, and sound better.

Thanks, I'll mention them to my banjo player clients.

[will84]

Another update...

I may be able to talk the band into doing some tracking at a local studio -- The Panhandle House, Panhandlehouse.com for reference. I'm pretty excited about the possibility, as it's been some time since I worked in a "real" studio setting. Of course, being a gearslut, I immediately started thinking about how I would utilize the studio's goodies...

My thinking is that I'll play a small drum set (kick, snare, hat, floor tom, crash and ride) to keep the band on beat (and have the tracks for the songs that call for percussion later) once I've gotten tones. Guitar, mando, and banjo at the same time. Here are my initial thoughts on mics and pres.

GUITAR: Neumann M582 (stereo pair) -> API
BANJO: AEA R84 -> Neve
MANDO: Royer 121 -> Neve
KICKout: Lawson L251-> API
KICKin: Shure Beta 91 -> API
SNAREtop: AKG 451 -> API
SNAREbot: Shure SM57 -> API
HAT: AKG 451 -> Neve
TOM: AKG 414 -> API
OVHD: Royer 122 x2 -> Neve

I figure I'll throw the drums into the larger iso booth, the banjo into the smaller one, and the guitar and mando into the live room.

Knowing the situation and the gear available (listed on the site), anyone have any other suggestions?

[Jimbo]

Try an API preamp on the banjo if the banjo is dark.