Mixing an open-air concert with 35,000 people

[George Necola]

ok.. so I have an offer for next spring to mix a band at an openair with a max. capacity of 35'000 people FOH mainstage.

I was always wondering how they do it.. you are like 100 meter away from the stage, higher then the crowd.. you have no chance to walk around and check the sound.. wind.. even stranger

is there a trick?

my biggest thing was 5k people outside, and 10k inside.. no problems..

it is metal

[noamraz]

In case that it is not a festival with balance right before the show you will have the option to hear and understand the system with system tech guiding and explaining you the signal-flow of the whole installation (L-(C)-R, Front/Side Fills, Delays) so at FOH you will have estimation for perceived loudness @ different areas of the venue vs. the meters at the desk - This procedure should provide the confidence.

normally, a "near-field" monitoring system time-aligned to the PA should cover it, making sure that you are hearing your your mix, or better i say, you are hearing the show as the audience hearing it.

Wind, Humidity and temperature should always be compensated and system techs (and the special tools as "smart" processors) will take in count these variables making sure you will concentrate in mixing.

As far as i can see it, 10k and 35k are no different with the right PA designers/engineers/crew involved.

[hanuman]

Sure, put the bass very loud and avoid eyecontact with every person looking at you.

[Roland]

It's relatively simple in so much as the trick is the setup. Firstly you have to decide how much system you need and the position of the speakers relative to the audience. I'm sure for that number of people you will most certainley need delay towers. A good system tech should align the system so that the coverage is as even as possible in both volume and frequency response. the net result should be that what you hear at the mix position should be a fair representation over the whole ground. I'm assuming that someone else will be installing the rig, if they are asking you to get a provider, do your homework, find a good company used to events of this scale, they have the software, speaker boxes and tech staff to make this happen for you, the mix is then relatively the same as for a smaller gig, with the exception that the stage sound will have relatively no effect for the audience all they will hear is the sound from the system, so everything has to be miked. If you have any other specific questions feel free to PM me.

Regards


Roland

[Huptus]

PA systems in Switzerland have always been good, you have a couple highly qualified companies over there, don't worry. As Roland said, there will be delay lines or FoH will be at 60 meters, not 100. Latency there is at about 200 ms which just doesn't matter when doing live jobs. There is nothing to sync against real time

Your job is staying cool, go there and just do it.

- send the sound company a qualified rider with your needs
- contact them 4 weeks before the show
- be prepared for a digital console
- be there in time and watch timetables for soundcheck and show
- don't mess around with the sound and stage people
- stage manager is the boss - he is more important than you
- mix for the audience, give them all a good time

that's it - quite easy...thumbsup

[macleod]

If its a festival, and you are not doing the headline act, you will not have a soundcheck anyway. Using the last guys settings as a starting point is always an interesting experience ( hopefully the guy on the desk before you was great eh! ). take headphones you now and trust as a giant well setup PA is more like what you will be hearing on your cans than a normal small venue where there is a load of noise coming off the stage. The other issue is volume, this year I had festivals where the noise limit was 90db. It was almost impossible to keep under 90. The level down the front may have been ok but people talking around the FOH position were a real distraction.

K

[Denny McNerney]

i have mixed a lot of festival shows for huge crowds, especially in europe.
be prepared. but not frightened.
you will probably not get a sound check, just a line check.
you might get a console you're not familiar with.

it is really important to know your band well. know what to expect they will be sending your way from note one. try to do a least a few more controlled conditions shows with them before you do the wildcard shows. hopefully you will have gtr and drum techs who can play, so you can get an idea of what to expect, even if you are just PFL'ing it w/ headphones at foh. don't go on just a snare hit or one chord.

talk to the guy with the sound company at foh. ask him what a mic trim gain setting usually is for a healthy vocal or a kick drum, if you're not familiar with that console.

of course clear accurate input lists and stage plots are prerequisites. talk to the stage crew, and foh guys well before your set. you'll probably have 30 or 40 minutes between acts. most festivals have alternating consoles, so you can set your console up while the band before you goes on at the other desk.

and outdoors and wind? high pass filters are your friend... big time.
and heat and humidity will constantly change the sound in the air.
go out to the foh position while other acts are on, listen at that position, and then walk around, and then to back to foh, and compare. if you are set back in a tower or tented area, make sure you listen there, and then at least stick your head out to the open air where the audience is...
when you finally get to mix, don't think about the fact that you are 150 (or more) feet away from the stage, or that mountain of people behind you... just get the audio image right where you are.

and hopefully it won't rain.

good luck.

[Denny McNerney]

and it's metal?

is it the bang your head or wacken festival?

[George Necola]

finland

thanx a lot for the infos so far! appreciated!

it is not the headliner.. and I hope there will be no digitaldesk (I have some experience with digi venue.. and I hate it.. haha).

hm, I think my biggest fear are the sidefills... how much is good.. normally i just put some vocal and guitars in the sidefills..

[jdtrbn]

Originally Posted by George Necola

finland

Do you mean Tuska open air? Because that would be pretty close to where I live.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by George Necola

finland

thanx a lot for the infos so far! appreciated!

it is not the headliner.. and I hope there will be no digitaldesk (I have some experience with digi venue.. and I hate it.. haha).

hm, I think my biggest fear are the sidefills... how much is good.. normally i just put some vocal and guitars in the sidefills..

I just bought a Venue with Protools HD64 package, blew me away, awsome configurability and great sound quality, you can do silly things with this live!

When you are talking about sidefills I'm guessing you mean monitors? If it is sidefills/infills on the FOH this will normally be the same mix as FOH (though it can be tailored on a matix out if need be), if you mean monitors that will be somone else's issue as this will be mixed on stage.

Regards


Roland

[tribeofenki]

aha!!

I love those metal-heads: on 10 mins of line check there's a 3 mins of claps/
shouts as the gig should be starting, a 3 mins of WTF 'who that old man on the
drums' thing and a 3 mins of shouts and rage against what they consider
somewhat useless noise.

Metal. Period.

[Denny McNerney]

Originally Posted by Roland

I just bought a Venue with Protools HD64 package, blew me away, awsome configurability and great sound quality, you can do silly things with this live!

When you are talking about sidefills I'm guessing you mean monitors? If it is sidefills/infills on the FOH this will normally be the same mix as FOH (though it can be tailored on a matix out if need be), if you mean monitors that will be somone else's issue as this will be mixed on stage.

Regards


Roland

yes, i love the venue too. i think it's the best live digital desk out there.

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by jdtrbn

Do you mean Tuska open air? Because that would be pretty close to where I live.

will check.. first thing i did was pissing my pants.. because of 35k people

contract not confirmed.. so if it will happend I will give you ashout and we can meet

I hate digital desks.. they are not rock n roll...

cheers

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by Denny McNerney

and it's metal?

is it the bang your head or wacken festival?

FYI - Wacken is now abour 75,000 to 100,000 people. I went this past year and it was very well organized (as is every German festival). I saw BYH in 2003 and loved it as well.

[jasonraboin]

The best advice I can offer is to walk around the venue during other acts set's. Compare how it sounds at mix to the rest of the venue. If you notice it is exceptionally bright at mix, you know that you have to mix brighter, or whatever the case may be. It is very hard to resist just making it sound the best you can at mix position, but when you can't control where mix position is, it's part of the job.

Also, keep in mind what is most important to the mix. The drums may start at channel 1, but, as someone once told me, "no one walks away humming the hi hat line". Vocal, vocal, vocal!

[talbe1019]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

Also, keep in mind what is most important to the mix. The drums may start at channel 1, but, as someone once told me, "no one walks away humming the hi hat line". Vocal, vocal, vocal!

That is true, but since it's metal I would replace the vocal, vocal, vocal with guitar, guitar, guitar.

[Denny McNerney]

Originally Posted by talbe1019

FYI - Wacken is now abour 75,000 to 100,000 people. I went this past year and it was very well organized (as is every German festival). I saw BYH in 2003 and loved it as well.

i've mixed at both of those festivals.
bang your head, multiple times.

midas analog consoles. if i remember correctly.

[Jim vanBergen]

Festivals aren't hard. But people who mix live have a different set of concerns and goals than studio engineers. It's not easy to wear both hats.

35k people or 50k people or 500k people is never the issue. The issue is, can you do what you need to do to get the band's show across?

1) Know your client (band)

2) Prepare well. That includes knowing what you need to make the band sound right, and advancing the show with the live sound company. Once you advance, you will know what the console is.

3) You can forward your tech rider and ask to have it pre-programmed if it's a digital console, or ask the FOH tech to do it for you. Any festival has a FOH tech who is a capable mixer, you can also ask him to dial in the show and then you come in and take over, or he can mix and you can give notes.

4) if it's a good festival patch on an analog desk, you might walk into a desk that's 95% dialed in. Still, you can't trust that- you might have a digital console and walk into a zero'd desk, so you have to prepare.

5) trust yourself to do fine...or get someone you trust to do it for you.

I don't think it's fair to say how to mix any band, of any form of music, as a given.
But in spite of that, I have heard Mixing Metal 101 described as:
Kick drum whacking the hell out of the subs, bass & gtrs in the middle, vox just barely on top. It's an easy starting place. Your recipe may vary.

[Remoteness]

JvB, your advice, observations and enlightenment is always on point.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by George Necola

will check.. first thing i did was pissing my pants.. because of 35k people

contract not confirmed.. so if it will happend I will give you ashout and we can meet

I hate digital desks.. they are not rock n roll...

cheers

As Jim say's 35,000, 100,000, 2,000 it makes little difference, it's still about making the show happening for the audience and the artist. Bad live sound can kill a show irrespective of how good the talent is, I've seen it many times myself.

With digital desk's I don't know what you mean by not rock n roll, but you better get used to them, many shows are starting to go over too them and the further up the food chain the more prevelant they are. Bearing in mind that the Venue is a Digidesign product, IMHO you can't get much more rock n roll than that being that almost all records produced these days are protool's to a greater or lessor extent.

Regards


Roland

[memphisindie]

If it's a Midas, you know what to do already, if it's digital the tech will be a big help, mainly, don't freak out and don't sweat the small stuff, remember how they play, how you want them to sound, dial it in as best you can. The crew at monitor world will take care of monitors, you get FOH, mix and have a blast, record it with something. I hope you can get to at least 98 db I'd go to 116 tops, transients to 125, mwah ahah.

Steve Remote! Long time no see.
Steve Remote, sheer genius.

[opentune]

Hey George, is this gig still going to happen (you mentioned that it´s gonna
happen this spring) ?

If so, then i´ll be glad to help you out with tips and tricks. Let me (us) know.

[ssaudio]

It's worth pointing out that most decent companies will also install a good set of over the bridge monitors too - dead handy if the wind is blowing across stage and you're not mad on mixing with cans.

Just make sure you double check the lines before you start, don't trust the FOH crew - if you get the time, of course.

Also remember that your channel list will be made fit their patch on the day, so if you generally like a line up that's off the 'norm', expect the worst

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I don't know how it is in Europe but here in the states the FOH mixer can either be your best friend or your worst enemy depending on their temperament. Some FOH don't like anyone touching "their" console and look at you as some kind of threat or infestation. Or they can be really nice and show you the ropes and be around when you really need them.

Festivals are interesting in that there are so many bands/artist and so many different people doing FOH sound. I have done shows where the FOH mixer had a part of the board setup for opening acts and the rest of the board was used for the feature act. I have been to shows were the FOH mixer was GREAT and I have also been to shows where he or she was a royal PITA. I have also been on the other side of the console being the FOH mixer and having someone come in to mix. These "guests" have been for the most part very cool and great to work with but I have had some can be a real PITA to work with. We had a show setup and the board was cleared and normalized. The "guest" engineer comes in takes one look at the board and lifts up one end of the board and drops it about 6" and says it is a POS and he will not work on it. (Soundcraft 500 24 inputs) the show goes down hill from there.

I have also had "guest" engineers who would not listen to what I had to tell them, thought they knew better, and got themselves in a mess that that took them half the show to fix. We gave one guy who was mixing the opening act a list of the microphones, what they were plugged into on the splitter and he took the sheet and tore it up into little pieces, Then he said "I will decide what microphones go to what channel and proceeded to go on stage and rearrange all the microphones that had already been setup. We had already done the sound check for the featured band and he basically messed everything up. Then he wants to know where our crossover points are for the FOH system and where they are set and wants to change them all. I said no. The next thing I know he is telling the promoter that I am being difficult and if I don't do what he wants his band will not play. The promoter was also my boss and knew that I was a good guy and so took me aside to ask what was really going on. After hearing my side of the story my boss finds the FOH mixer for the opening band says that they are the opening band, not the featured act and if they don't play they are not getting paid. He also goes to the featured act's manager tells him what is going on and the next thing I know their FOH mixer is all smiles and very cooperative even replugging all of the microphones back to the way I had them.

Best of luck!

[equallyscrewed]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

We gave one guy who was mixing the opening act a list of the microphones, what they were plugged into on the splitter and he took the sheet and tore it up into little pieces, Then he said "I will decide what microphones go to what channel and proceeded to go on stage and rearrange all the microphones that had already been setup. We had already done the sound check for the featured band and he basically messed everything up. Then he wants to know where our crossover points are for the FOH system and where they are set and wants to change them all. I said no. The next thing I know he is telling the promoter that I am being difficult and if I don't do what he wants his band will not play. The promoter was also my boss and knew that I was a good guy and so took me aside to ask what was really going on. After hearing my side of the story my boss finds the FOH mixer for the opening band says that they are the opening band, not the featured act and if they don't play they are not getting paid. He also goes to the featured act's manager tells him what is going on and the next thing I know their FOH mixer is all smiles and very cooperative even replugging all of the microphones back to the way I had them.

That one sounds far too familiar

xcx

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I don't know how it is in Europe but here in the states the FOH mixer can either be your best friend or your worst enemy depending on their temperament. Some FOH don't like anyone touching "their" console and look at you as some kind of threat or infestation. Or they can be really nice and show you the ropes and be around when you really need them.

Festivals are interesting in that there are so many bands/artist and so many different people doing FOH sound. I have done shows where the FOH mixer had a part of the board setup for opening acts and the rest of the board was used for the feature act. I have been to shows were the FOH mixer was GREAT and I have also been to shows where he or she was a royal PITA. I have also been on the other side of the console being the FOH mixer and having someone come in to mix. These "guests" have been for the most part very cool and great to work with but I have had some can be a real PITA to work with. We had a show setup and the board was cleared and normalized. The "guest" engineer comes in takes one look at the board and lifts up one end of the board and drops it about 6" and says it is a POS and he will not work on it. (Soundcraft 500 24 inputs) the show goes down hill from there.

I have also had "guest" engineers who would not listen to what I had to tell them, thought they knew better, and got themselves in a mess that that took them half the show to fix. We gave one guy who was mixing the opening act a list of the microphones, what they were plugged into on the splitter and he took the sheet and tore it up into little pieces, Then he said "I will decide what microphones go to what channel and proceeded to go on stage and rearrange all the microphones that had already been setup. We had already done the sound check for the featured band and he basically messed everything up. Then he wants to know where our crossover points are for the FOH system and where they are set and wants to change them all. I said no. The next thing I know he is telling the promoter that I am being difficult and if I don't do what he wants his band will not play. The promoter was also my boss and knew that I was a good guy and so took me aside to ask what was really going on. After hearing my side of the story my boss finds the FOH mixer for the opening band says that they are the opening band, not the featured act and if they don't play they are not getting paid. He also goes to the featured act's manager tells him what is going on and the next thing I know their FOH mixer is all smiles and very cooperative even replugging all of the microphones back to the way I had them.

Best of luck!

Like every type of session, gig, etc there is a protocol. A visiting band engineer can expect to be able to have a graphic eq over the mains which he can "tweek" if he wants to, changing crossover points and the rig set-up is the system tech's job. If he's unhappy with that he's entitled to tell them so, unless he's the support acts FOH, then the main acts FOH gets the call.

Moving mic's, changing channels, repatching is the domain of the systems people. We put out a rig last year and a visiting engineer pulled the plug on a couple of boxes without asking, decent engineer, but he was told in no uncertain terms that if he wanted to make any further changes like that he asks our tech who will do it if it's safe and practical. It's someone elses gear and due respect should be paid.

Regards


Roland

[AnAverageJoe]

Originally Posted by George Necola

finland

thanx a lot for the infos so far! appreciated!

it is not the headliner.. and I hope there will be no digitaldesk (I have some experience with digi venue.. and I hate it.. haha).

hm, I think my biggest fear are the sidefills... how much is good.. normally i just put some vocal and guitars in the sidefills..

I usually run some vocals, some guitar or piano, but I try to over do it. I always do vocals on my sides, but I just get it up to a point were it's audible and not loud or distracting!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Roland

Like every type of session, gig, etc there is a protocol. A visiting band engineer can expect to be able to have a graphic eq over the mains which he can "tweek" if he wants to, changing crossover points and the rig set-up is the system tech's job. If he's unhappy with that he's entitled to tell them so, unless he's the support acts FOH, then the main acts FOH gets the call.

Moving mic's, changing channels, repatching is the domain of the systems people. We put out a rig last year and a visiting engineer pulled the plug on a couple of boxes without asking, decent engineer, but he was told in no uncertain terms that if he wanted to make any further changes like that he asks our tech who will do it if it's safe and practical. It's someone elses gear and due respect should be paid.

Regards


Roland

Here in the states a lot of guest FOH people are very antagonistic and rude and basically think they can do anything without consulting the house sound techs or anyone from the sound company because they have been "around a while".

There is however the other side of the coin...

I was asked to guest engineer a concert in a church with an installed sound system. I was, in this case, the guest FOH engineer. I got there early and waited for the person who was suppose to show me the system. He showed up with a very big chip on his shoulder and was NOT HAPPY that I had been hired to do the sound since he usually did it. He was less than helpful and was not very friendly. All the microphone jacks had names on them and there were no numbers anywhere except on the fan out for the console and they were plugged in with a random numbering scheme. I asked if I could repatch them so they made sense to me and was told "no". I brought along a tone generator and took about 20 minutes to figure out what was plugged into what. Some of the channels on the console did not work. I got out my pad of paper and figured out what I wanted to do and what channels were working and which were not. About that time the rest of the AV "crew" showed up and they were also very upset that they were not doing the concert and every time I asked a question about the system or the setup I was given and icy stare and no one told me anything.

The group showed up and we chatted for a while and it turned out that the tech rider they had sent was NOT what we were doing and instead of 32 microphone they only need 4 mics and 4 DIs. I got them setup with no problems and we did a sound check They were using in ear monitors which were wireless and I got that working as well. The church provided supper and it was GREAT. I came back to the board and the minister of the church was there and he was fussing around with the board. He told me that he was going to intro the group from his own private wireless which he had just setup and all I had to do was turn it on. I was then told that there was going to be an opening act. I was also told that before the concert the minister wanted some music played and I was given a CD and told what tracks he wanted off of it. At the appointed time I start playing the music and the minister comes over and slams the fader to max saying to me that he wants it loud. The opening act starts and about 3 minutes into the set the keyboard is no longer be amplified in the room. I ask one of the AV crew to check it out and he says "do it yourself" So I leave the sound board walk up on stage see that the output cord from the keyboard had become unplugged plug it back in and go back to the audio console only to find the minister furiously moving up all the faders. I reach over turn the channel down, turn on the channel and bring the fader up and we have a keyboard. The minister is fuming mad and yelled at me "you left your position" and I tell him that I had asked he AV crew to figure out what was wrong by they did nothing. The main group was very easy to do and I collected my check and left. They church was expecting 800 to 1000 people at the concert and 20 showed up. When I was getting ready to leave the AV crew was busily dusting off the console and returning all the control to their normal settings and wiping off the armrest. On my way out the door I asked the person who hired me why they wanted me to do the concert and she said they were afraid that the concert requirement were beyond the AV crew's abilities which they surely would have been if the original contract had been what they wanted done.


Not a good experience.

[Roland]

Hi Tom, sorry to hear about your problems, however, this doesn't fit the bill of the above. In this case you were very obviously dealing with amateurs, it happens. In those scenario's if they aren't prepared to help you better know the gear and the act you are dealing with. I've had a little bit of this even with pro's who have felt "put out" over the fact I've been brought in over them, particularly when they have done sound for that act in the past. If they decline to help and you have been specifically hired by whoever is in charge it becomes a different kettle of fish. I still wouldn't help myself to everything, however, I would make a few more executive decisions, possibly explaining the situation to my client in advance so if people start getting very difficult they at least can either insist that I get the assistance required or tell them that I am to be allowed to do my job. Personally I have no problem with visiting engineers. Often they vary from the fairly incompetent to occasionally you get a real pro who knows exactly what they are doing. If they are not great I try to have the rig well preset that it can't go too far wrong and depending on the receptiveness of their personality I offer help and assistance in as tactful a way as possible. Sure they may not be good themselves, but they may appreciate my helpfulness and sometimes I have found that it has led to more work from them. Of course if the person doesn't want my help I just standby and do what they ask of me, even if they are making a fist of it, I've learned to never take it personally. I alway try to remember that at one time I probably wasn't that good and I certainly appreciated those that took the time to help me through it.

Regards


Roland