Preamp Choice - Character With Transparency

[88man]

I am trying to decide on which 2ch preamp to get for recording a Steinway D. I am looking for subtle character without sacrificing transparency:

-larger than life sound
-phat, rich, full
-fast transient response
-transparent
-euphonic without nasal or honky color

Preamp Choices - online observations from others:
1. DAV BG-1U - May sound too thin because roll off below 50Hz?
2. Forsell SMP-2 - ?
3. Forssell FetCode - May have slower transient response?
4. Millenia HV-3 - May sound too sterile, without larger than life sound?
5. GML 8302 - May be too much like Millenia HV-3?
6. Millenia M-2B - ?
7. ADL600 - May sound thin because bass roll off, unless driven hard?

Mics are AKG C414B-XLS and Sennheiser MKH8020.

Any recommendations, experiences, opinions on the aforementioned preamps to get the desired character?...

Thanks Guys!

[Axelrod]

in my most humble of opinions, it won't matter much. your signal chain is only as good as its weakest link. getting a super bad-ass pre and then plugging a 414XLS into it might not yield "super bad-ass" results.

i would rather have a super sweet mic and a fair pre than a fair mic and a killer pre.

good luck.

[David Spearritt]

Not another preamp thread. Sigh.

[Plush]

I think that any quality mic amp will work for you.
That is because the room and the source (the piano) are making the sound. A mic amp only translates that sound with a bit of change.

I cannot agree that you have accurately summarized other people's comments when you list them next to the various mic amps. For example, there is no bass rolloff inherent in the d.a.v.electronics BG1 or the ADL600 and the Fetcode does not have slow transient response. The ADL 600 does not sound thin and does not have to be driven hard for good results.

Your best mics are the 8020 omnis and they require a good room like any omni mic.
Do you have a good room?

I recommend the Fearn mic amp for phat ,rich and full. Also d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 for transparent with some character. Fearn is less transparent but is a beautifuol mic amp. BG# 1 is neutral with a bit of euphonic syrup character to make a sweet recording. It is a Decca mic amp. If it is good enough for Decca, it is good enough for us.

A good piano recording only happens with a good piano in a good room, so don't waste your money if you don't have those two things.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Plush

A good piano recording only happens with a good piano in a good room.....

Ye of little faith!

[88man]

Thank you and my apologies, Gentlemen. I presented only negative comments that I could find online concerning the aforementioned preamps. To be sure, I thought I'd ask you all.

Out of cognitive dissonance, I am trying to avoid buying another wrong expensive preamp. A year after I bought the Avalon AD2022, I found that it wasn't the right preamp. It imparts a velvety fuzz over the sound, probably in the form of higher harmonic distortion, which others have also confirmed.... Only if I knew of this forum earlier!

Thanks to the advice of Idylldon and Ethan Winer, I finally treated my large room with DIY OC-703/705 panels, and now the pristine Steinway B sounds balanced in my room. Since recording is becoming a new hobby for me, I'd like to expand my palate of preamp - mic combination.

Thanks Plush, I agree with your recording philosophy on several threads I've come across. I am glad to hear that the DAV BG-1U doesn't have any bass roll off... After I get a new preamp, I've had my sights on a pair of Brauner Valvet mics. What do you think?...

[Martin Kantola]

Originally Posted by 88man

I am trying to decide on which 2ch preamp to get for recording a Steinway D. I am looking for subtle character without sacrificing transparency:

-larger than life sound
-phat, rich, full
-fast transient response
-transparent
-euphonic without nasal or honky color

The above is pretty much what the RND Portico 5012 is to me. Realized I have stopped using my Millennia HV-3 completely since I got the new Neves, because they are transparent but with plenty of fullness. Very very musical. And subtle is the keyword as usually with Mr. Neve.


Martin

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by Plush

I think that any quality mic amp will work for you.
That is because the room and the source (the piano) are making the sound. A mic amp only translates that sound with a bit of change.

[snip]

A good piano recording only happens with a good piano in a good room, so don't waste your money if you don't have those two things.

+ 1 bazillion

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Ye of little faith!

Not at all -- rather, ye of much real seriousness about making great recordings!

My advice to the OP ... if you don't like what you've gotten out of prior recordings, you must look first at the room and your mic usage, and then at the mics. I'm not a big Avalon fan, but I would certainly be trying something other than those AKG's before assuming the Avalon was the problem.

Fact is, when they line up microphones in a blind test, any five year old can tell them apart, and yet when they line up preamps of any reasonable quality in a blind test, many seasoned pros can't tel them apart. The differences imparted by preamps are subtle, and any high-end choice should be capable of a great result if the instrument, player, mics and room are right. If those other things aren't right, a slightly different preamp isn't going to fix the problem.

Partly with that in mind, I'll give a hearty +1 to the Neve Portico suggestion. It is unquestionably in the "any reasonable quality" group, and it's available at almost incomprehensibly low prices, $1600 or so new and $1200 or so used. It has great controls for stereo recording with a stepped attenuator for gain followed by a continuously variable output fader. And it has the SILK switch, which gives you a little bit of tonal flexibility.

I personally was deeply satisfied with Millennia (here's one example) and not thrilled with DAV, but others might say the opposite. Just keep in mind what I wrote above about the blind tests, and stay focused on the parts of the signal path that really make a difference.

JSL

[Gaston69]

Hi,

I can recommend the Crookwood Paintpot with a pair of Omni's like DPA 4060, on my website you'll find an audio sample where I used the above mentioned configuration.

Gaston

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by jslevin

... ye of much real seriousness about making great recordings!

Or rather, serious about the EASIEST way to make great recordings.

Here's a heresy for you: everyone knows, or should, that superb gear in a great hall with a wonderfully tuned and regulated piano under the fingers of a gloriously talented player running through their standout, signature piece should yield a great recording, but there's nothing to stop a dedicated engineer from taking a performance in circumstrances where each of these factors are slightly sub-par and STILL ending up with a mesmerizing, enchanting, addictive recording that is full of excitement and glories.

Engineers are not just robots or trained monkeys pushing buttons. That is-- ummm... I think I'll leave it at that.

[brle]

Originally Posted by 88man

4. Millenia HV-3 - May sound too sterile, without larger than life sound

Sounds funny to me. I´ve seen so many Millenia haters on GS, I mean, why?
For your confidence check this out:
Millennia Users

I frankly doubt that all those guys listed there like that, on GS so often called "sterile sound".

Sascha

[BrianHanke]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Or rather, serious about the EASIEST way to make great recordings.

Here's a heresy for you: everyone knows, or should, that superb gear in a great hall with a wonderfully tuned and regulated piano under the fingers of a gloriously talented player running through their standout, signature piece should yield a great recording, but there's nothing to stop a dedicated engineer from taking a performance in circumstrances where each of these factors are slightly sub-par and STILL ending up with a mesmerizing, enchanting, addictive recording that is full of excitement and glories.

Engineers are not just robots or trained monkeys pushing buttons. That is-- ummm... I think I'll leave it at that.

+1 kajillion to the above - that's even more than a bazillion, right? :o)

To the OP: I would go with the DAV. It comes highly recommended and the price is quite reasonable.

[resound]

Also be aware that the dollar is trading favorably against the pound right now. If you're interested in a Crookwood, you'll get a much better deal paying in pounds and letting your credit card issuer or bank handle the conversion than paying in the dollar amounts listed on their Website.

I guess the same thing can be said for the DAV, too, so perhaps this is the season for some British sound?

As an aside, I just put in an order for the Crookwood ADC option. Once it comes in and I have a chance to compare (with Metric Halo), I'll post some impressions.

[chk027]

Originally Posted by brle

Sounds funny to me. I´ve seen so many Millenia haters on GS, I mean, why?
For your confidence check this out:
Millennia Users

I frankly doubt that all those guys listed there like that, on GS so often called "sterile sound".

Sascha

+1 quadrabazillion!!!!!!

Thats gotta be the highest number out there........

IF it works it works

[Gaston69]

Hi Crackhead, I look forward to hear the ADC results compared to the Metric Halo, looks we have more or less the configuration

Gaston

[badmark]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Not another preamp thread. Sigh.

Man, there are now 215,316 threads on this site. Your point is what, exactly?

[resound]

Gaston,

Do you have the ADC option? I haven't been able to find any reports on it anywhere. I finally decided to just get it and see what I think since it's a pretty fair price right now for us in the states.

-V

[Gaston69]

I have not the ADC card installed,

Gaston

[FastlanePro]

I'm loving my Flamingo. It can do the "super clean" thing, and has options with the "Sound" switches that can add either a nice amount of thickness and/or a really nice sheen/shimmer.

I'm not super experienced - but I don't imagine it'd get that much better.

My 2 cents....

Lane

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by brle

Sounds funny to me. I´ve seen so many Millenia haters on GS, I mean, why?
For your confidence check this out:
Millennia Users

I frankly doubt that all those guys listed there like that, on GS so often called "sterile sound".

Sascha

Have you tried it yourself and compared with other preamps ? Some people do not just read websites and ads. They love good sound, use their ears and keep searching for new and better sounding options, make some personal effort, lot of comparisons and make interesting findings ... Why would you call someone who found something much better sounding for him a hater ? HV3 is OK, but there are quite a few better sounding options ... if you look for a fuller, more detailed and more realistic sound.

To the original question - I think Thermionic Culture Earlybird may quite relate to your description. Being relatively transparent, with a decent smooth/sweet character, slightly larger than life and NOT honky/tubey coloured

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Or rather, serious about the EASIEST way to make great recordings.

Not at all, it's never easy. It's just the way not to chase your own tail all day trying to compensate for things that can't be fixed. I'm all for guerilla techniques, and a good engineer makes the best out of whatever situation he/she finds.

Working around a bad room is the recording equivalent of spending all day auto-tuning someone who really can't sing. All that auto-tuning is hard work, and necessary sometimes, but is it great engineering? Not really. It's just a long time spent on a workaround. In general, folks spend too much time compensating and not enough time creating situations are simply more ideal. Given a crappy room, do you shop for a new preamp, or do you spend a couple days working the phones, trying to find a better place to record, maybe coming up with an extra $100 or so to do it right?

there's nothing to stop a dedicated engineer from taking a performance in circumstrances where each of these factors are slightly sub-par and STILL ending up with a mesmerizing, enchanting, addictive recording that is full of excitement and glories.

Again, I agree, but that approach is the kind of thing where you glorify the one time in 60 you got a great result, you deal with achieving limited success 50 times out of 60, and you throw out the unusable results the other 9 times. Meanwhile, someone else is taking the time to work at a higher standard in a better situation, only gets to record 25 times but gets truly great results 24 times out of 25. At the end of the day, is the score 51-24 (livable results), or 24-1 (great results)? That's the question.

I've been on every side of this, I know, and maybe you have, too. Ultimately, it comes down to a question of which way you choose to spend your short time -- which type of work is it really your dream to be doing?

Engineers are not just robots or trained monkeys pushing buttons. That is-- ummm... I think I'll leave it at that.

And here's where I point out that this is a thread about preamps -- and if you really believe that statement, you should be agreeing with me.

Engineers who are mainly by-the-book button-pushers think that if the results aren't that great, they must get a new set of buttons to push. Hence the continuing explosion of preamp discussions (and products), well out of proportion to their influence on recording quality potential. A real engineer knows that pushing the right buttons is the easy part — you're a moron if you can't work a preamp — and the real work comes in manipulating the instrument and the mics within the room.

So my advice continues to be, (a) identify a list of great preamps, (b) get the cheapest one that is fairly well aligned to your needs, (c) once you're done screwing around with that marginally useful exercise, get back to the real work of engineering, which is not pushing buttons like a trained monkey.

You can love the romantic idea of a swashbuckling engineer dealing with hostile environments — that's great. Just don't try to tell me that that has anything to do with comparing a DAV to a Millennia.

JSL

[joelpatterson]

I do agree with everything you say. My own personal situation is that I am 99% of the time recording in halls I have no control over, so spinning floss into gold is a survival technique I picked up early on. Did this give me a pirate's gleam in my eye?

Aye, matey...

[staudio]

Don't forget about Tube Tech.

[aracu]

There are so many obstacles that can come up... stage managers only allowing you to place mics in one place, ensembles in unmoveable, off-balance positions, bad acoustics, bad performances, etc., that to get a hold of some boutique pres won't solve any problems but can give some feeling of security.

[brle]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Have you tried it yourself and compared with other preamps ?

Of course I´ve used it and also compared with many others preamps too. IMO it´s just very good sounding and quality piece of gear where adjective "sterile" somehow does not fit. I´d use it anytime with no hesitation (as also DAV BG-1 which I dig for good sound and compact format).

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Some people do not just read websites and ads.

Are you sure? Scroll up this site on the right for some big phrases!
Seriusly, what´s wrong if you say to player "hey this typ of gear is used by Berlin Philharmonic" he´ll be impressed and maybe even play better.

Sascha

[88man]

Thank you all for your great ideas. At this point, I am going to look into the Thermionic Earlybird 1.2 and DAV BG-1U as viable candidates.