(really) tall mic stands for organ recordings

[Petrus]

Who makes really tall mic stands, like 20´/6 meters minimum? What brands/rigs/DIY systems do you church organ recording people use?

[mpdonahue]

Try searching "tall mic stand"...... This has been discussed over and over again.
All the best,
-mark

[Angus]

Lots of posts here on this subject is you do a search. I did ten days of baroque organ recordings last month and I used Manfrotto 269BUs with 142B extensions. Total combined height is just under 22'. They also make a 269HDBU which by itself goes to about 24' but its collapsed length is greater and I was trying to keep my gear to within allowable international airline dimensions. If you really need nosebleed height Manfrotto also makes a 146B extension which, combined with the 269HDBU, will go to over 34'. Haven't tried that combination but I found the 269BU/142B combination to be quite steady at full height and the weight is quite manageable. You might also try to find a JTL Black Tower although AFAIK they're no longer being made.

Angus

[Ozpeter]

A suitable search string might well be "Manfrotto" as that brand would get mentioned in any relevant discusssion.

[John Willett]

Manfrotto and the big K&M stand (with boom) that goes up to about 7m.

[Ozpeter]

If pipe organs are designed in terms of case and voicing to be heard from about four feet above the ground by a listener in a pew, is it always appropriate to record them from extreme heights?

I appreciate the need to get clear of floor reflections, but as a pipe organ is a vertical instrument in effect, unlike an orchestra being a horizontal instrument lending itself to obtaining even-reach from a highish mic, perhaps the instinct to go high to record an organ isn't necessarily always right

[Plush]

Ozpeter is exactly right. Test your set up at just above congregation height.

The organ, especially newer ones, is voiced to be heard while sitting.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

Try searching "tall mic stand"...... This has been discussed over and over again.
All the best,
-mark

...Or, click on the "Stands Clamps Claws" tag on this forums main page.

I spent an insane amount of time putting those tags in place, but not enough folks picked up on that convenience.

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by Plush

Ozpeter is exactly right. Test your set up at just above congregation height.

The organ, especially newer ones, is voiced to be heard while sitting.

Hmmm,
Using this logic we should record orchestras from the 10th row center. We know how that turns out.
Realistically, the positioning of microphones for recording has almost nothing to do with the location of a listener in the hall. What matters is that the balance and blend are appropriate for the playback of the recording. This normally requires listening ;-)
All the best,
-m

[Ozpeter]

Using this logic we should record orchestras from the 10th row center. We know how that turns out.

To which I am bound to respond that using the normal organ recording logic (high stand) we should be recording an orchestra from above the back row of the strings!

Indeed one has to listen and make a new judgment each time. But I'm thinking of the initial principle from which to work.

Maybe it's radically too over-simplified to think of it this way, but I'll throw this concept out for consideration -

Think of the orchestra as a sheet of A4 paper, probably in 'landscape' orientation, laid on a table. Think of the typical location for a stereo pair in relation to it - somewhat above the table, a bit in front of the paper (probably not much) looking down on the paper.

Now turn that into an organ by lifting the back of the paper so it's vertical, at 90 degrees to the table. In the case of some organs you'd also need to lift it off the table somewhat. Imagine the original mic for the orchestra being kept in the same relationship to the paper, now therefore a bit below the paper and looking up. Is there a need to have the mic higher up, more opposite the centre of the paper? Wouldn't that imply an artificial perspective, same as if you had a stereo pair above the middle of the orchestra pointing straight down?

I'm not stating a rule, just interested in views on the whole approach to mic height when recording pipe organs.

(Admittedly not the subject raised originally, but given that the question has already been answered before, might as well make the thread worthwhile!)

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

To which I am bound to respond that using the normal organ recording logic (high stand) we should be recording an orchestra from above the back row of the strings!

Indeed one has to listen and make a new judgment each time. But I'm thinking of the initial principle from which to work.

To my mind, the principles are thus:

1. A main array in front of an orchestra is really only high enough to give clear "line of sight" to the mics from all players in the ensemble, so that the players in front do not mask or otherwise overbalance the players in the rear. The placement of mics for an organ recording is no different in my view: you want clear line of sight to the instrument, which frequently means getting up and over for a gallery installation.

2. I agree with Mark on placement ... the goal is a good blend of direct and reverberant sound. Organs are frequently in spaces that are much more reverberant than concert halls, which means you must be closer in many instances to achieve good blend. For organ in a good room, the usual choice is omnis which also need to be closer than directional mics to achieve said balance. Since you have to be reasonably close AND have decent line of sight for clarity, that frequently means you have to get the mics UP there so they can "see" over the gallery rail to the instrument. (Of course, a floor level installation like St Meinrad in Indiana doesn't have line of sight issues, but many organ installations do.)

Cheerio!

[Petrus]

First, my apologies for a too simple a question.

Originally Posted by hughesmr

To my mind, the principles are thus:

1. A main array in front of an orchestra is really only high enough to give clear "line of sight" to the mics from all players in the ensemble, so that the players in front do not mask or otherwise overbalance the players in the rear. The placement of mics for an organ recording is no different in my view: you want clear line of sight to the instrument, which frequently means getting up and over for a gallery installation.

2. I agree with Mark on placement ... the goal is a good blend of direct and reverberant sound. Organs are frequently in spaces that are much more reverberant than concert halls, which means you must be closer in many instances to achieve good blend. For organ in a good room, the usual choice is omnis which also need to be closer than directional mics to achieve said balance. Since you have to be reasonably close AND have decent line of sight for clarity, that frequently means you have to get the mics UP there so they can "see" over the gallery rail to the instrument. (Of course, a floor level installation like St Meinrad in Indiana doesn't have line of sight issues, but many organ installations do.)
Cheerio!

I agree! The point is to make the RECORDING sound as good as possible, and that is not necessarily the same thing as what the congregation or concert goers get to hear. Who says the best place to hear a church organ is not a 20' high bar stool 1/4 aisle length away from the organ? It just happens that we are not given the opportunity to have a seat like that. But we CAN put a pair of mics there.

In my limited experience the mics can and have to be surpricingly close to the organ to avoid excess revibration. Usually the organ sounds quite good everywhere for a listener, who has his/her brain to analyze 3D spatial aural information. Recorder has two one dimensional pickups, direct to reflected ratio is set by mic placement. Also, speaking for high placed mics, the organ loft rail might block the sound a bit, and sometimes the back positif would be to prominent if the mics are close but not high enough.

[Shadow_7]

I thought that 10th (or 11th) row center was for movie theatres where the room and gear is designed to present the already recorded material to that location.

With small stages and deep pit areas. You need 6' (or more) just to get to the floor level of the stage from the pit. Plus another 9' to get to 3' above and behind the directors chair. And then there's organs which I haven't a clue about. Aside from a neighbor I used to have that had one. It was more of a synth, that you could probably plug directly into your recording gear these days.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

Hmmm,
Using this logic we should record orchestras from the 10th row center. We know how that turns out.
Realistically, the positioning of microphones for recording has almost nothing to do with the location of a listener in the hall. What matters is that the balance and blend are appropriate for the playback of the recording. This normally requires listening ;-)
All the best,
-m

Right On! Of course we have to listen. In my former comments I was not asking people to draw an analogy to orchestra recording, Mark, or giving instruction to put mics near listeners. I was telling our assembled group how organ builders specifically aim to have the instrument sound balanced from where most people will hear it. I am a specialist at organ handling! Often, organs are voiced to sound balanced at congregation level. This is a known principal and I urge people to try it.

You are right to caution new recording people about placing mics where the listener's ears are. That is not the point in this case. Organ sound, even from a high rear balcony position, often ends up being directed down and also low bass is often heard with a full fundamental closer to the floor than way up in the air.

My point is that one does not always have to be up at organ case level to get a proper balance. Stands at 8-12 feet are usually perfectly useable.

I have recorded the largest selling organ record in the world. Last year it sold 280,000
copies. I am paid for each one.

[NorseHorse]

The largest selling organ recording.

Just how large is it? Double wide vinyl?! Laserdiscs? Road-side attraction large?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

I am a specialist at organ handling!

Sorry - almost fell off my chair at that one.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

The largest selling organ recording.

Just how large is it? Double wide vinyl?! Laserdiscs? Road-side attraction large?

It is .50 cents per copy in my pocket large.

[sonare]

Back to reality-- I recorded an organ a few years ago for the organ builder (who also voiced it) and he wanted the mics up high enough so the the small pipes of the upperwork were not "shadowed" by the impost (the "foot" of the facade). The difference in sound was easily noticed.

In a rear gallery instrument with a ruckpositve (the small box of pipe on the balcony rail) the location must be experimented with so there is only a SLIGHT change of presence between it and the main case.

If you stop and think about it-- ALL organs have been voiced at normal sitting height for the simple reason that only a masochist would want to spend several dozen hours up in a lift (or similar) with a MIDI keyboard shouting voicing instructions to the guy with the voicing tools up in the instrument. In most cases the "ears" guy is sitting on the organ bench conveying instructions to the "voicer" with the tools who is in the instrument making adjustments on the pipes on the order of a few thousandths of an inch. "Tedious" does not come close--

And Plush-- at $.50 per disc does this mean Klaus is really MUNIFICENT and everyone has the wrong impression?

Rich

[sonare]

OK-- here's the secret answer-- buy THIS

5008 JTL Black Tower 19.5' Lightstand, 8 Section, Detachable 5/8" Top Mounting Stud with 1/4" x 20 Thread, Supports 25 Lbs., Black Anodized.

add AEA EX 14 extension

Modular Microphone Stands – Products – AEA Big Ribbon Mics™ and Recording Tools

and you've got 34 feet-- which is as much as any sane engineer would go short of the hydraulic pump. It's up to you to research THAT one to see if it's use with ORGANS is real or fantasy!

Rich

[Plush]

Welcome to the record business as it used to be. People did make a living and more from selling works that they had put hard sweat and thought and creativity in to.

As you know I worked for one of the founders of Naxos Records in the 1980's. In return for establishing Naxos with ALL of the original recordings, we have a special arrangement today.

I have no comment on Naxos's business practices today.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by sonare

Back to reality-- I recorded an organ a few years ago for the organ builder (who also voiced it) and he wanted the mics up high enough so the the small pipes of the upperwork were not "shadowed" by the impost (the "foot" of the facade). The difference in sound was easily noticed.

There will be a difference. But Plush is right, organs are voiced from a standing (almost always) position on the floor. There doesn't have to be any problem getting the upperwork perfectly scaled and voiced to the rest of the instrument, except in some unusual room geometry situations. If the upper work is not heard in proper proportion from the floor, then the organ builder has failed.

Originally Posted by sonare

In a rear gallery instrument with a ruckpositve (the small box of pipe on the balcony rail) the location must be experimented with so there is only a SLIGHT change of presence between it and the main case.

The ruckpositive that I play is not a small box. It's got 1X16, 3X8' reeds, 2 very large mixtures, a cornet separe, a sesquialtera, and much more! It's larger than many entire instruments. There should be a noticeable change in presence, that's what it's there for.

Originally Posted by sonare

If you stop and think about it-- ALL organs have been voiced at normal sitting height for the simple reason that only a masochist would want to spend several dozen hours up in a lift (or similar) with a MIDI keyboard shouting voicing instructions to the guy with the voicing tools up in the instrument. In most cases the "ears" guy is sitting on the organ bench conveying instructions to the "voicer" with the tools who is in the instrument making adjustments on the pipes on the order of a few thousandths of an inch. "Tedious" does not come close--

Sorry, but this is totally untrue. They are voiced from the floor because that is where they are heard-and they are evaluated from many different positions on the floor. BTW, it would be very easy to use an electric platform (some churches have their own permanently in the facility).

The "ears" sitting on an organ bench? You have been around fourth rate builders, I'm afraid.

In fact, the situation with many large instruments is such that while seated at the bench, the upper most division in the case can be heard only indirectly.

Of course, with a Ruckpositive, it is not possible to hear than directly at all, unless little doors are provided on the back side. But that's only for maintenance and tuning access, and as a convenience to the player. That doesn't let the player hear the organ proportionately, or even linearly.

The point being, organs are not voiced from the bench because that is 1) not where the organ is heard, and 2) not where the organ can be heard.

[sonare]

Location depends on installation. How many organs have you witnessed being voiced? I have only observed 6 so I bow to your superior knowledge. I'll let the organ builders know they were wrong as well.

Rich

[Angus]

Rich, good suggestion regarding the JTL although the Adorama link you referred to lists it as out of stock and JTL themselves say that the 5008 Black Tower is no longer in production due to "lack of interest." They say that, when it was in production, they only sold about 5/year. Curiously though, the 5008 remains on JTL's website. Maybe you know of somewhere that still stocks them. Great value at about 1/3 the price of similar Manfrottos.

Angus

[AndrewClaycomb]

I interned with a studio several years ago that had really long retractable pvc tubing with a hefty wooden cross beam stand. These things got mega tall and were way more stable than you could imagine. I wish I could remember more details on how they built them, but it was the same principal as the center pole in a traditional mic stand. They just epoxied a threaded piece at the top to be able to thread mic clips on.

The only time I ever got to use them was when we recorded an organ in an old baroque church. It was also the only time I got to work in the mobile studio (fully functional tracking room with AC/Heat in the back of a box truck).

[Peter Oxford]

All this talk of Organ building reminds of a night, when for social reasons, I visited my Son’s Headmaster at his Home.

As I sat with him in his spaciously comfortable living room in front of a large fire set in a huge brick fireplace, I noticed a tremendously ornate looking Black Sword in its Sheath hung on the wall above the mantle-piece.

I said to him, “Well I fully expected to find a cane somewhere hereabouts, but a Sword is rather drastic a measure to have to deploy in order to keep proper discipline, isn’t it?”

Suddenly, he appeared to greatly warm to me, and seemed delighted I had mentioned the Black Sword. Positively bursting with pride, he told me it was a valuable Family Heirloom, handed down the generations.

As I recall, I believe he said it was his Great Grandfather who had rebuilt the Organ in The Vatican, and to convey his appreciation for the service provided, His Holiness The Pope had ‘Knighted’ his relative with that very Sword in a special ceremony, and then presented him with it as a gift in memory of the occasion.

No doubt, the children in his charge were greatly relieved the Sword wasn’t kept for them!





“Who makes really tall mic stands, like 20´/6 meters minimum? What brands/rigs/DIY systems do you church organ recording people use?”





Hi Petrus,

I have known some very wonderful people from Finland I love and admire.

My hobby is photography, and I am a great believer in the Film axiom of utilising the services of a Lighting/Cameraman. Because of this, over the years I have acquired a large amount of different lighting equipment including stands. You see, I consider creative lighting to be a vitally important key to superb Studio and Location photography.

In regard to your question, at a huge ‘photographic trade’ show, I managed to purchase at a very advantageous cost, two extremely Heavy Duty large footprint Lighting Stands. In addition, I was able to similarly purchase the partnering two long Boom Arms with Heavy Iron Counterweights that fit to the top of the base stands. These were brand new, especially manufactured for a major photographic retailer, who had decided to show them at a large exhibition, and then dispose of them.

This type of thing happens more often than many people would imagine. My brothers garden for instance, has some marvellous features bought for small money after The Chelsea Garden Show. RHS Chelsea Flower Show 2008



If I put the booms vertically, I have all the height of the large stand plus the additional range the long boom affords upward.

If I place the booms approximately horizontally, I have an incredibly panoramic sweep of scope up and across for placement.

I trust you can see that under such circumstances the exceptionally large footprint of the base stands comes into its own, providing greater stability with its foot in line with the position of the boom, and the combination of a heavy duty base vertical, plus the addition of a boom affords the widest range of possibilities.

The reason I mention this flexibility is because access to the best sounding spot in the room for microphone placement, is not always achievable as simply as one might wish.

Sometimes, especially in Europe, in very old architecturally superior buildings of the type in which you will find a highly reputable Grand Organ; where you place your heavy mic stand is limited by the buildings physical practicalities,* official dictates and controls,** and in live concert situations.***

*(A sloping floor not being the least of these in particular Concert Halls and Auditoriums; but if the floor of the Auditorium is sloped, with little alternative choice for placement, the base stand’s stability can be substantially enhanced by compensatory measures utilising the counterbalancing effect of the boom and mic, the counterweight itself, additional Iron Weight added to the feet, or if allowed, discrete hard fixing to the floor).

**(Especially in busy Capitols, and major Metropolitan Cities).

***(Where the visual consideration and safety of the audience will often have priority).



I have Swiss made Elimchrom lighting. Studio Flash Systems - Digital Flash Systems - Elinchrom Flash Systems

Posters from the U.K. will be pleased to know that the Classic Elimchrom Flash system is extremely reliable and thus commonly utilised by many U.K. Local Authorities to install in their Speeding Trap Camera Systems to catch illegal motoring.

Undoubtedly, it will be reassuring to law abiding motorists knowing that having being ‘Flashed’ at 1/2600 s with a super fast recycling time of 0.3 sec care of Swiss manufactured precision, there is no question of easily escaping prosecution.



As you will appreciate, the size and weight of Professional Lights (both for Photography and Film) are such that any stand and boom combination that can easily handle such bulk safely, should never fail to enable easy placement and (more importantly) safe handling of the type of expensive microphone normally utilised in the situations under discussion.

Lamentably, I have heard of many instances over the years where engineers inexperienced in this genre, have inadvisably fitted Classic heavy mic’s, to somewhat insubstantial stands, with quite woeful consequences indeed.



The manufacturer Manfrotto has been mentioned.

Manfrotto.com - homepage

I have been an avid user of their Tripods and Heads for a great many years. Their ability to lock heavy longer lens securely with absolute stability in ‘lighting sets’, that sometimes can take all morning to prepare, has proved a tremendous asset.

As I normally read exposure directly from the face with a Flash/Ambient Light Meter synced to the Strobe Lights; having everything stay precisely as you have set it, is a tremendous boon.


Those starting off their efforts in a small way hereabouts, will no doubt warmly appreciate that Lino Manfrotto (a great photographer) began the huge business we now know and love, in the humble confines of a small garage.

“Do not despise the day of small things.”



Apart from the excellent recommendations already wisely espoused.

Other manufacturers that readily spring to mind are the superb company Matthews Lighting.

MSE - Matthews Studio Equipment

These manufacture specialist products for Film Makers primarily.

But if you have a particularized requirement, they are sure to have the eventuality covered with a premium product of quality for every conceivable application.

They are the ‘go to’ manufacturer for Hollywood and other prime sites for Film Makers throughout the world.



But to reiterate. Myself, I like to go to large exhibitions, and talk directly to manufacturers and distributors. I like to see what’s about, as it’s surprising what you can come across at times, meeting professionals, learning something new, and having a nice day out.

Sometimes, it is the case that the higher end equipment needed and acquired to put on a big show, do not fit into distributors longer range plans, and by sage negotiation, they can be purchased advantageously. This surely is worth knowing.



In general.

I believe the best recording position for a mic in any Auditorium is only found by a degree of trial and experimentation, as an additional supplement to deep and profound experience, for which there is no adequate substitute.

Experience is very important in this field. You can make or break a recording right there. It gives you a great starting point, from which to place a mic in the Auditorium, carefully moving it, and evaluating the result, as time allows.

As you might expect, the experienced professional will probably nail ‘the sonics’ pretty quickly. It’s a big part of what you pay them for.

There are many ‘recordings’ but the recording to make is of course, ‘THE’ recording, that sets the bar!

If that's the recording you wish to make, you must employ a professional.



If you wish to make a recording that simulates a member of the audiences listening perspective, deploying a Binaural Head microphone to make a dummy head recording is a useful approach to take.

Georg Neumann GmbH - Products/Current Microphones//



Such an approach has been utilised on certain of my recordings long ago that (happily or unhappily depending on your musical taste) achieved considerable chart success in its genre. Of course, a mix of both methods would provide an even greater range of options, which is what we did.

Today, complex multi-channel arrays are even possible.




Which brings me to another point, the budget!

You see this type of recording very greatly benefits from utilising superb microphones, ideally placed, which is by its nature quite an expensive business altogether.

In a superb building hired for purpose, where time is strictly limited, this then is a task usually best left to specialist professionals, as highly experienced and accomplished as possible for the best result.

Never the less, if you are a keen amateur, you may find placing Omni’s in the Pinna’s of an especially prepared Modelling Head, or even manufacturing a Jecklin Disc, setting it up with two mic’s and placing it optimally, give you a result that begins to approach a sonic impression you aspire upwardly towards.



To summarize.

The axioms, I have always followed are these.

If the Stands can handle very Heavy Lights at full stretch, they will handle any mic on the planet quite easily. Thread adaptors may be necessary.

A large footprint Stand and Boom Combination can prove to be more flexible and versatile and useful for more applications, thus a better investment for many. (It will not have been lost to working professionals that for a great variety of different applications, a pair of sweeping booms is a most useful tool to have at ones disposal, not least, where an Orchestra, an Orchestra Section, a Virtuoso Percussionist or a Drum Kit is concerned for example).

These two interests (Audio Recording and Photography) have at times, symbiotic relationships, areas of mutual compatibility where there is an entirely justifiable complimentary overlap.

This is one of them.





As for sample rates........










P

[sonare]

I think this one post could take an award for the longest I have ever seen on Gearslutz! Lots of very useful information. I do not think that C-stands are a viable option unless one owns a lighting truck.

Thought it might be useful to say that I have used SDC (Senn8020 or Schoeps) at the top of the Manfrotto 5-section 17ft stand (no longer made). It looks like the 269HDBU fills every requirement with a max height of 24ft (738cm). What adapter hardware is needed at the top is your job, however. Price is a factor (at $308) but I would definitely prefer the Manfrotto method of securing each section to the JTL friction rings.

tripods, heads, monopods, light stands, camera supports, lighting supports, professional tripod 269HDB-3U - SUPER GIANT ST. BLCK 3 LEVLEG

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Angus

Rich, good suggestion regarding the JTL although the Adorama link you referred to lists it as out of stock and JTL themselves say that the 5008 Black Tower is no longer in production due to "lack of interest." They say that, when it was in production, they only sold about 5/year. Curiously though, the 5008 remains on JTL's website. Maybe you know of somewhere that still stocks them. Great value at about 1/3 the price of similar Manfrottos.

Angus

I wonder if JTL / B&H would respond to a group order? I really don't need a 2nd giant, so anyone up for the task of contacting them and getting details?

Rich

[pkautzsch]

Anybody used gas balloons? That seems the most flexible setup to me, as the limiting factor isn't stand height, but cable length and weight (and if it's getting too heavy, just use another balloon).

[Petrus]

Thanks for all replys. Unfortunatelly not all brands and models mentioned are available here in the backwoods, but nice pipe organs we do have aplenty.

Peter Oxford might be pleased to know that I have earned a comfortable living from press photography for over 30 years. The company I work for has 4 large studios, but the tallest light stands are only about 3 m tall, as all studios have remote controlled ceiling light fixtures.

For the next gig I will rent a light stand from a cinema rental house (4.5m + 2m extension). I have ordered myslef a König&Meyer 4.4m + 2.2 m boom stand which should be here in a few weeks, saves drivng time form/to the rental house...

I am a relative beginner, so true, but have an engineering mind. So I think I know, basically, what I am doing. Gear: Senn 8020 mics, self made Jeclin disk with Manfrotto parts, K-Tek KSSK suspensions, Mogami cables, SD722, ADAM S3A + Genelec 7071A for monitoring.

I have also done binaural reportage recordings with DPA 4060 (3 weeks in Iraq with mics taped to the edges of the combat helmet), radio & video docs (national radio & tv & NG).

Recording classical music with mimalist mic tehcniques just might be a perfect hobby for the future... Maybe even a business enough to pay for this simple gear.

[sonare]

Be sure and try your Senns on a 1m bar as well as the JD.

Rich