Mics and setup for outdoor nature surround recordings

[MaxEars]

Hi all

I'm very lucky to be going on a boat trip to some remote wilderness areas of eastern Indonesia. During the trip i intend to do some outdoor surround recordings of the nature and wildlife.

The main use for these recordings ... apart from the fun we have doing them... is to provide sounds for ambient-style compositions to be played in a spa to guests during massage treatments. We shall install surround speaker systems in the various rooms such that the patients' heads whilst on the massage table will be in the sweet spot...

i feel that I should do these recordings, the consequently produced disks, and the speaker setups as, per regular 5.1 standard. That is to say, do the recordings with regular 5.1 speaker config in mind. This would enable other uses to be made of the recordings later... possibly for sale on DVD-A. To this end, I have been informed here that an ORTF setup on the front and an XY on the rear might be a good way to approach it. I could maybe consider a 5 way setup but feel that a good 4 mic setup might suffice

Alternatively, I could consider doing a 4 way equidistant speaker setup in the spa instead of the regular setup and record with that view in mind. I imagine that in this case it a simpler mike setup might work correctly ie presumably a 4-way equidistant mike setup.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on an appropriate mike setup(s) that you'd recommend. I foresee recording a natural ampitheatre of wildlife sounds in a horse-shoe shaped bay about 1/2 a mile radius, or maybe an approaching storm on a headland, or just leave the setup for a couple of hours in the forest or on a beach pointing into the adjoining jungle and see what we get... something like that (not sure how relaxing the thunder sounds would be in the spa but we'd try to get them anyway ( :

I'm intending to buy a Sound Devices 788T (thanks for the advice already received here! ( :

I have at my disposal my mics or if there some reasonably-priced better choices i would like to consider those too.

As pairs i have Rode NT4. Rode NT5 (2), AKG 535b (2), Studio Projects C4 (2), Rode NT1000 (2), Rode S1 (2), AKG C1000 (2), Shure KSM141 (2), Shure SM57 (5) .... also various other single mics.

I have been mostly focussed on thinking about using the NT4 and NT5s . ... any better choices? other mics not too expensive ? I really can't stretch to anything really nice for this project.. you know the story... something about (not enough) budget ):

Anyway thanks for your thoughts

Max (in full slut mode)


....

[John Willett]

You can also do surround with just 3 mics (or two even) and the Schoeps Double-MS plug-in.

Cardioid pointing front and rear + a fig-8. (EG: Sennheiser MKH 800 TWIN + MKH 30).

If you are going to a damp and humid area RF condenser mics would be the only ones to give consistently good sound as normal AF condensers go crackly and noisy in the damp. Which is why the MKH series are normally the mics of choice for wildlife recordists.

Be careful with the 788T as it gets pretty warm - SD advise leaving space around it for air flow (it's all on their website).

[loujudson]

You should aks this at the naturerecordists@yahoogroups.com e-list - the real experts are there.

I would not use any of those mics for nature recording, though. Go ask at the group and search the archives. I don't have the time to go into the wealth of information you will find there! Or I'd go into it...

naturerecordists : E-Mail group of individuals interested i

[tedr]

Maxears,

I have had great success recording various nature sounds using Crown PZM mics. If the sound source does not contain any really low frequencies, you can just tape them back to back and get amazing stereo seperation. I've got some recordings of crickets and dogs barking that are so real, my cat hissed and ran off! Somehow, the PZM's are able to capture not just left and right spacial information, but up and down as well. I've recorded planes on approach to my local airport that are still around 6000 feet flying from left to right and it makes you want to look up as well. Give 'em a try and see if they will work for you. One caveat, they are condensor mics, so they will require phantom power to work.

Ted

[David Rick]

It seems like your massage clients are unlikely to be in the sweet spot. Because they'll be closer to one side or the other, any surround technique that relies on time delays (which is most of them) will not produce proper imaging.

If you don't really care about imaging between the speakers, that might be ok. If you do care, then you're left with single-point surround arrays. Examples would be the Soundfield microphone (which can record height information), and various planar varients: Double M/S, Blumlein+Omni, four cardioids, Trinnov SRP. Of these, only the Trinnov can actually place sound in the center speaker without compromising the sound stage. So if you're going to use a conventional mic array, you won't be routing anything to the center loudspeaker and there's probably no point in having one. Don't feel bad about that: if you ever want to re-purpose this material for film use, the center channel will be reserved for dialog.

Another approach is to say, "I don't care about exact localization, I just want different sounds to come from different directions." In that case, you might want to use an "IRT cross" which is four cardioids aimed outward from the corners of a 25 cm square. This is often used for ambiance recording, and it's a particularly good fit for an installation with a speaker in each corner of the room. You could also try very widely spaced omni's -- the wider the spacing, the less correlation between channels.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[RobAnderson]

Hi David - I seem to be following you this evening!

I was also going to recommend looking at the Soundfield mic's - single point surround sound that can be dematrixed however you like later:

SoundField: Products

One thing to also consider if you are going to use microphones outdoors is a good wind screen.

[Martin Kantola]

Sorry if you've seen/heard it before, but here's a low weight high-quality outdoor surround system with my special mike and a SD744T recorder:

Panphonic.com

Recently, I've also tried an Edirol but the mike pre-amps are not as good. With enough output signal from the microphone it's not necessarily a huge problem.

Best,

Martin

[pkautzsch]

Field surround recording is what Double MS seems to have been invented for. Keeping the setup small is key, especially when out of so-called civilization.
I wouldn't even use the MKH800, but rather compact mics like the Schoeps CCM series.
The trouble about DMS is that you need a fig-8 capsule, and these aren't made by the budget manufacturers. Anyway, these mics can be rented (paid by client) or even bought and re-sold, as Schoeps don't lose much value over the years (just look at the prices on evil bay), so I wouldn't worry about that.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by John Willett

You can also do surround with just 3 mics (or two even) and the Schoeps Double-MS plug-in.

<snip>

Be careful with the 788T as it gets pretty warm - SD advise leaving space around it for air flow (it's all on their website).

To allay any fears you may have about the heat problems with the 788T I have added this link to the actual page and am quoting, too, what SD says. To me it seems like normal caution. To others it may not seem that.

788T and Heat Considerations*|*Sound Notes*|*Sound Devices, LLC

"788T and Heat Considerations

The 788T is a marvel of mechanical design. Using the latest 3-D computer-aided design tools and powerful visualization environments, the designers built a product that has an incredible amount of processing power and I/O flexibility. Because of its compact size, it is used in environments and applications never before possible for an eight-channel audio recorder. This brings with it several considerations for use.

All that processing power generates heat. The numerous “systems” in the unit, such as its wide bandwidth analog circuitry, low-noise A/D and D/A, and the powerful DSP processor generate heat. The primary cooling mechanism of the 788T is its aluminum top and bottom panels. Any electronic component drawing appreciable power (ie. generating heat) is thermally bonded to these aluminum panels. This construction efficiently wicks heat out of the unit and keeps internal temperatures cool. In fact, the 788T runs nearly 10 deg C cooler than the 744T while having twice the I/O. While the 788T is designed to operate in extreme temperature environments, the cooler it runs, the longer lasting it will be.

When in operation, it is very important that the top and bottom panels have a bit of ‘breathing room’, especially when operating in a bag. A production bag filled with a 788T and numerous wireless systems and insulating (foam) dividers keeps heat in, rather than allowing it to dissipate.

Recommendations
The following are a few simple recommendations on maximizing airflow to the top and bottom panels.

Try to provide at least 1/2-inch of air space above and below the 788T when operating in a bag. Accomplish this with corrugated dividers or a suspension system.
Turn off (click off) all unused microphone inputs. Microphone inputs draw power for both their analog and digital circuitry when active.
Turn off the Li-ion battery charger when the unit is operating in a bag. The battery charger can generate quite a bit of heat while a depleted battery is being charged.
When operating on a cart, place rubber bumpers on the bottom of the 788T to provide a small airspace below the unit. Do not stack items on top of the 788T without any ventilation space, except for Bobbleheads."


I have a 788T and have not had heat problems running in normal circumstances. I have not yet run more than four channels. If you were running Schoeps DMS you wuld be running three channels. With SF and the new SPS200, I believe, you would be running four channels. I doubt you would want to wander around Indonesia with more than a four mic setup. So, I can tell you that running four channels under normal (70 - 80F) is not a problem. If SD says it can be run in extreme temps I would just hazard a guess they know what they are talking about and are not lying.

My experience with my 788T is that it is a nice piece of hardware. It sounds nice, too. As usual, YMMV.

Cheers

[John Willett]

The important bits are:-

When in operation, it is very important that the top and bottom panels have a bit of ‘breathing room’, especially when operating in a bag. A production bag filled with a 788T and numerous wireless systems and insulating (foam) dividers keeps heat in, rather than allowing it to dissipate.

Recommendations
<snip>

Try to provide at least 1/2-inch of air space above and below the 788T when operating in a bag.

Which is mainly what I was referring to.

The Sound Devices are nice recorders and the main reason I did not get a 788T was the lack of 96kHz recording ability.

[MaxEars]

Hi there

Thanks to you all for your opinions... they are very interesting.

I was stunned that I missed the fact that the 788T only goes to 48k... when I was reading the user manual pdf I assumed that there had been a firmware revision that would have made it 192k capable... i mistakenly assumed that the 788T and 744T, as part of a series, would be similarly speced. Thanks for the heads up!! John, what machine did you decide on?

I am, therefore, now going to go for the 744T unless I am dissuaded otherwise.

David I agree with you that the Centre speaker is not necessary so I'll forget about that scenario. Regarding the sweet spot of the client ... if there was just one patient in the room his/her head would be in the sweet spot either facing down or facing up for the most part.. i guess though that they might be sitting up for parts of the treatment.... and it may also be that there will be two tables (for couples) side by side and apart a meter or two ... so in fact the sweet spot may not be important for the spa usage ... but would be for any later use intended for 5.1.

I'm interested to try M/S, and ORTF, and also the IRT cross. There's just no way I can stretch to some of the gorgeous mikes that have been recommended....the Crown PZM is an interesting thought. i saw a Core Sound TetraMic .... tempting but I won't be able to get that one in time.

I'm wondering again if there is a more budget line of mics that might provide a servicable result for these mic configs... I went to the nature recordists forum and had a look... it seems the Audio Technica AT3032 has been popular and it is very affordable... problem is it is discontinued. I shall keep trawling there when I can

Fundamentally I would like to get some good experience with two or three techniques if possible on this trip. Obviously I'm in new territory with these techniques this time. Maybe I could look at something like the Soundfield in the future if this effort works out well enough

Your thoughts are much appreciated

Thanks very much and best to you all

Max

[bigos]

dont take any expensive mics to indonesia its not worth the risk also make sure you have a bass roll off on the mics incase there is wind. I did lots of location recording in India and I always had good results with under $400 mics. there will be lots of dust moisture and being on a boat anything can happen.
good luck
ranjit

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by MaxEars

i mistakenly assumed that the 788T and 744T, as part of a series, would be similarly speced.

I am, therefore, now going to go for the 744T unless I am dissuaded otherwise.

Great machine. But please note that it's only got two mic preamps, so you'll need two external. SD makes those as well, and there are others. Check the B&H catalog for options. There's a portable Grace, but it has built-in converters, so it may be overkill. Some of the smallest Mackies, Tapcos, etc. use an external line lump, so they can be run off battery power if you're technically savvy.

I'm interested to try M/S, and ORTF, and also the IRT cross. There's just no way I can stretch to some of the gorgeous mikes that have been recommended....
I'm wondering again if there is a more budget line of mics that might provide a servicable result for these mic configs... I went to the nature recordists forum and had a look... it seems the Audio Technica AT3032 has been popular and it is very affordable... problem is it is discontinued.

When I needed a bunch of identical multi-pattern mics for surround experimentation, I bought Rode NT-2A's (see photo).

You can build pretty much every standard surround configuration out of these except for OCT (no hyper pattern). On the plus side, they are sturdy and very quiet. On the minus side, they are heavy and much more colored-sounding than typical small-diaphragm mics. This is particularly apparent in reverberant environments -- perhaps less so in your application. Since then I've moved on to pricier stuff, so mine are for sale. PM me if interested.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by MaxEars

John, what machine did you decide on?

I went for the Nagra VI.

6-track and 4 superb mic. pres.. The high capacity battery option is good for at least 12 hours, probably 14 or 15 and it stays cool all day.

I had considered the SD 744T originally, but it only has 4 tracks and 2 mic. pres.

[rastasean]

Have you considered the AT3031/3032s? I know they are discontinued now but there are some places selling out the rest of their inventory.

I have heard some nice recordings from these mics before. I hope to get at least one pretty soon for this exact purpose.

If you wanted to wear headphones, I would consider binaural mics like these:
Stereo microphones, USB Microphones, Preamplifiers, Digital Recorders, Cables and more at Rock Bottom Prices from The Sound Professionals - Great deals on Microphone, Preamplifier, Digital Recorder, Cable and more!

[MaxEars]

Hi there

Been quite frantic getting it sorted but I'm heading out tomorrow with SD 744T and SPS200 mic setup.... I decided to stretch the budget to get a simple and reliable rig.

Whilst i know there may be some issue with slightly mismatched pres (I've added SD MixPre for channels 3 and 4) I'm hoping I'll be able to get some great sounds.

I'll post back with my results in a few weeks.

thank you all for your great help ....

Regards and my appreciation

Max

[fondone]

how's the soundfield microphone?