Ambience / Wild Sound Recording for Film... Stereo Mic or Not?

[OVERNIGHT]

I'm doing some after-the-fact ambience recording for a medium-small budget film that will be 5.1 and has been pretty well recorded thus far. We just need some better location sounds, both indoor and outdoor. I'm an experienced studio guy but I'm new to location recording. Lord knows I gots options, swimming in options.

Are any of the all in one, hand held units going to sufficient for ambience tracks? I've checked out the $500 Sony and Zoom and both seem quite good for what they are but I feel like I won't really know what kind of tracks I'm getting until mix. Has anybody used handhelds for serious location sound?

A shotgun is not neccessarily the way to go for this end of things, correct? I'm recording no dialog. Is a stereo mic or stereo pair the prefered setup? I have a pair of AT 4051's I could use in m/s? Has any one here done it this way for this kind of application?

If I don't do the hand held unit I'm probably going to rent a recorder but I'm wondering if any of my current mics will be sufficient to use.

Mics I have:
AT 4051 (2)
414 B-Uls
AT 4060
441
RE-20
Royer 121

Do you suggest another, perhaps a true stereo mic?

It's a lot of questions I realize but I want to get it right with out too much trial and error (time is getting tight ) and not break the budget in the process. Any and all suggestions appreciated!!!!!

[smurfyou]

I would use an X/Y setup if you're using a pair (personal preference). I like using stereo microphones. And I would not shy away from using an all-in-one recorder. They are very convenient for recording ambience.

[Berolzheimer]

The 4051's are probably pretty good for this, but m/s? Can't do that with 2 cardioid mics.
I personally prefer ORTF for most things although the point source x/y & m/s mics are more convenient & some of them sound great.

[philper]

Have you been asked to provide stereo tracks? If you have, it would good to ask more about what the audio posties want. MS? XY? One point stereo mics ok? Perhaps different ambiences for different scenes will require different approaches. Are you being asked to do any spot FX? Shotguns are not necessarily a terrible idea if you are trying to get ambiences that need to somewhat match production, and often having the pattern of a very directional mic is very helpful in getting what you want without a lot of what you don't want from the audio at a given location. You also need to consider wind--zeppelins and wind-rats at a minimum, and some kind of shock mounts if you think you might be hand holding those mics. The Zoom etc recorders are ok for their price, but you may be asked to do clean recordings of very low-level ambiences. If what you are recording is destined for the big screen it would be good to have very clean preamps and convertors--many of us use Sound Devices recorders for this purpose (as among the cheaper recorders at that level of quality). One last piece of advice--have your note taking (and/or metadata) together--it is very easy to get lost among a lot of similar sounding ambience tracks. A smaller number of well-described, named and organized tracks is a better asset for post production than a whole lot of great tracks with little or no file organization and inconsistent naming.

Philip Perkins

[boojum]

Disclaimer: I have not done this.

That said, I would use a pair of good omni's in an A-B array. You want the feel of the ambiance more than the precise location of objects. Omni A-B will do this. I would use the best omnis I could get.

I am curious what the pro's have to say.


Cheers

[charles maynes]

mono is VERY underrated.

A good sound in mono is far better than a mediocre sound in stereo...

[Matti]

M/S is mono or stereo and anything between at will -and add a mic for
rear you get surround with some matrixing.

Matti

[OVERNIGHT]

Originally Posted by philper

Have you been asked to provide stereo tracks? If you have, it would good to ask more about what the audio posties want. MS? XY? One point stereo mics ok? Perhaps different ambiences for different scenes will require different approaches. Are you being asked to do any spot FX? Shotguns are not necessarily a terrible idea if you are trying to get ambiences that need to somewhat match production, and often having the pattern of a very directional mic is very helpful in getting what you want without a lot of what you don't want from the audio at a given location. You also need to consider wind--zeppelins and wind-rats at a minimum, and some kind of shock mounts if you think you might be hand holding those mics. The Zoom etc recorders are ok for their price, but you may be asked to do clean recordings of very low-level ambiences. If what you are recording is destined for the big screen it would be good to have very clean preamps and convertors--many of us use Sound Devices recorders for this purpose (as among the cheaper recorders at that level of quality). One last piece of advice--have your note taking (and/or metadata) together--it is very easy to get lost among a lot of similar sounding ambience tracks. A smaller number of well-described, named and organized tracks is a better asset for post production than a whole lot of great tracks with little or no file organization and inconsistent naming.

Philip Perkins

Awesome advice, thanks everybody. And Berolzheimer, good catch, yes I meant xy not m/s. Totally hear you on keeping good documentation.

The ambiance I'm doing consists of the following:
Crowd sounds, cheering etc, from outside of a stadium.
Cheering, crowd sounds in a sports bar.
Times Square traffic + crowds
Small street traffic sounds
Sound of a car in a parking garage
The running sound of a few specific models of car from outside and inside.
Diner, small restaurant ambiance

The director really doesn't want to use much canned stuff even though I know a lot of it is perfectly good. Not much if any spot FX needed, foley & designer guys will handle that stuff. I will definitely need a dead cat and mount. THis is likely to see the big screen so quality is an issue but the movie over all has a pretty gritty, intentionally low-fi feel to it. I want someone to tell me I can get away with the handheld Sony unit and that everybody does it .... but I don't want to waste my time if I'm dreaming. How 'bout that $1800 Sony PCMD1 I think it is, anybody use it in this application?

If I do rent it'd be the Sound Devices 702T from Gotham Sound. I guess I could do the 4051's in XY. I guess it'd just be about getting good windscreens for my SDC's. Are dead cat's definitely better than foam?

Thanks again!

[philper]

Originally Posted by OVERNIGHT

Awesome advice, thanks everybody. And Berolzheimer, good catch, yes I meant xy not m/s. Totally hear you on keeping good documentation.

The ambiance I'm doing consists of the following:
Crowd sounds, cheering etc, from outside of a stadium.
Cheering, crowd sounds in a sports bar.
Times Square traffic + crowds
Small street traffic sounds
Sound of a car in a parking garage
The running sound of a few specific models of car from outside and inside.
Diner, small restaurant ambiance

The director really doesn't want to use much canned stuff even though I know a lot of it is perfectly good. Not much if any spot FX needed, foley & designer guys will handle that stuff. I will definitely need a dead cat and mount. THis is likely to see the big screen so quality is an issue but the movie over all has a pretty gritty, intentionally low-fi feel to it. I want someone to tell me I can get away with the handheld Sony unit and that everybody does it .... but I don't want to waste my time if I'm dreaming. How 'bout that $1800 Sony PCMD1 I think it is, anybody use it in this application?

If I do rent it'd be the Sound Devices 702T from Gotham Sound. I guess I could do the 4051's in XY. I guess it'd just be about getting good windscreens for my SDC's. Are dead cat's definitely better than foam?

Thanks again!

The "dead cats" ARE better than foam, but they need to be attached to a larger rigid windscreen ("zeppelin") in order to work well. A major part of wind protection for mics consists of making a "dead air" zone around the mic, which is the part the zep does. Setting up a pair of your 4051s for XY for exterior work probably will involve getting two zeppelins with mic mounts that fit your mics, the wind rats and then some method for holding them in correct position. In truth, foam windscreens are next to useless on exteriors, especially for quieter sounds.

Philip Perkins

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

mono is VERY underrated.

A good sound in mono is far better than a mediocre sound in stereo...

I agree.

Unless there is a compelling reason for something to be stereo, it often it better recorded mono.

If everything is stereo, it can sometimes wind up sounding like a big wide shapeless wash. General crowd sounds are great in stereo, but specific reactions can be more easily point sourced in mono. Sprinkling specific mono reactions around the different speakers helps emphasize the stereo effect and gives you directional dynamics that spice up the stereo bed.

One can always play a stereo track mono, but it is inconvenient, more time consuming and uses up voices unnecessarily. Also, stereo tracks sometimes feel lifeless when played mono because of phase cancelations and the fact that there is too broad of a sound field being crammed down a single channel.

If mono tracks are carefully chosen they can create a kind of "super" 5.0 sound field. For instance, 5 compatible mono cricket or rain tracks carefully balanced and bussed to different speakers can make for a very compelling spatial effect. The trick is to find tracks that are unique but still sound like the belong together. Sometimes you need a stereo track bussed L/R ls/rs to act as glue or "spackle" to subtly connect them all, but not necessarily.

Things like onscreen car bys are much better in mono. Panning stereo car bys is a waste of valuable mix time.

[philper]

In my doco work we always end up with two batches of SFX, stereo, which are ambient and sound design kinds of sounds, and mono, which are sounds that are meant to sound as thought they were part of the production track. So we end up making stereo sounds into mono pretty often to get them to "sit" properly in the track.

Philip Perkins

[OVERNIGHT]

It seems like most of the stock ambiance tracks I'm hearing are definitely stereo. What I'm hearing is that I need to pick and chose what sounds I record stereo and what mono. I have some car interiors while driving that I'm thinking should be mono now. And I'm surprised that car drive bys are better mono, I would think that properly sat you would have nothing to do in stereo as far as panning is concerned?

Would my 414 B-Uls be a good mono mic to use for ambiance? I just don't want to go into mix and have the guy look at me and say "why on earth did you use that?" And FYI, I don't know who the mixer will be.

Am I correct in assuming that my little pipe dream of using the Sony PCM-D1 is probably not going to be adequate for decent quality ambiance tracks?

Thanks again guys!

[philper]

Originally Posted by OVERNIGHT

It seems like most of the stock ambiance tracks I'm hearing are definitely stereo. What I'm hearing is that I need to pick and chose what sounds I record stereo and what mono. I have some car interiors while driving that I'm thinking should be mono now. And I'm surprised that car drive bys are better mono, I would think that properly sat you would have nothing to do in stereo as far as panning is concerned?

Would my 414 B-Uls be a good mono mic to use for ambiance? I just don't want to go into mix and have the guy look at me and say "why on earth did you use that?" And FYI, I don't know who the mixer will be.

Am I correct in assuming that my little pipe dream of using the Sony PCM-D1 is probably not going to be adequate for decent quality ambiance tracks?

Thanks again guys!

I've heard pretty good things about that recorder actually, certainly better than the other "pocket" recorders. The 414 is a great mic, but not really all that well configured for exterior SFX work. Most of the available zeppelins are made for end-firing small diaphragm type mics, shotguns in most cases, so you might end up having to make your own. It was really designed for stand mounting so it doesn't have the resistance to handling noise that mics have that were designed for field work. That said, if you can deal with getting it "location ready" there's no acoustic or electronic reason why it shouldn't sound great. My guess is that you'll end up using the hypercard pattern a lot.

Philip Perkins

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by OVERNIGHT

What I'm hearing is that I need to pick and chose what sounds I record stereo and what mono. I have some car interiors while driving that I'm thinking should be mono now. And I'm surprised that car drive bys are better mono, I would think that properly sat you would have nothing to do in stereo as far as panning is concerned?

I'd say you have it backwards. Car interiors are great in stereo, although I generally fold them in a bit to give them a center.

The problems with stereo car bys are that there is no center and the pan will seldom match what is happening on screen. They work fine for off screen or ambient bys if you fold in the stereo 50/50, but the imaging is inappropriate for most on screen bys. The only time it works for me is when there is a somewhat slow extreme CU by and then I pan the the left and right channels simultaneously with a bit of a stereo offset. This also works with semi trucks and trains, but it still needs to be panned, it doesn't work by simply assigning the channels left and right.

[philper]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I'd say you have it backwards. Car interiors are great in stereo, although I generally fold them in a bit to give them a center.

The problems with stereo car bys are that there is no center and the pan will seldom match what is happening on screen. They work fine for off screen or ambient bys if you fold in the stereo 50/50, but the imaging is inappropriate for most on screen bys. The only time it works for me is when there is a somewhat slow extreme CU by and then I pan the the left and right channels simultaneously with a bit of a stereo offset. This also works with semi trucks and trains, but it still needs to be panned, it doesn't work by simply assigning the channels left and right.

Put another way: the car interior is a sort of steady-state ambiance of a space with a distinct acoustic signature, and so benefits from having the spatial qualities of a stereo track. The exterior car-by is a spot effect that has to be closely matched to what's happening on-screen in order to be bought as part of that shot. Since how the car-by should sound is very dependent on complex factors like how close the car is to the camera, the angle of its approach and departure, speed, road surface etc etc the mono car-by (in this case) might be a better choice when mixed with a stereo steady state background ambiance--the feeling of realism would be greater than a single stereo effect of a car by in most cases, I've found.

Philip Perkins

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by philper

Put another way: the car interior is a sort of steady-state ambiance of a space with a distinct acoustic signature, and so benefits from having the spatial qualities of a stereo track. The exterior car-by is a spot effect that has to be closely matched to what's happening on-screen in order to be bought as part of that shot. Since how the car-by should sound is very dependent on complex factors like how close the car is to the camera, the angle of its approach and departure, speed, road surface etc etc the mono car-by (in this case) might be a better choice when mixed with a stereo steady state background ambiance--the feeling of realism would be greater than a single stereo effect of a car by in most cases, I've found.

Philip Perkins

[BirthNight]

Hello and thank you in advance for any help I receive.

So I'm going to be doing some SFX and ambience recording in the desert tomorrow. I have a question about recording ambient sounds with the gear that I have reserved. First I'll list the gear:

Sound Devices 702
Sennheiser 416
Audio Technica 835b
Rycote Zeppelin w/ windsock
Two mic stands
One boom pole
and my personal Tascam DR-07 handheld recorder.

My main objective is to get rock slides, dust, dirt, debris etc. But I am also wanting to do some ambience recording of the desert air/wind/ birds etc.

My handheld DR-07 has too much noise for quiet ambience recording and it's pretty much impossible to EQ out without ruining the whole sound. So, is it acceptable to use the 416 and 835b in an XY configuration, or will these mics sound weird together since one will be hard left and the other hard right? Of course I'm going to experiment with it anyway but I just wanted to get some opinions in case I can change my mic reservation at the last minute!

THANKS!

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by BirthNight

Hello and thank you in advance for any help I receive.

So I'm going to be doing some SFX and ambience recording in the desert tomorrow. I have a question about recording ambient sounds with the gear that I have reserved. First I'll list the gear:

Sound Devices 702
Sennheiser 416
Audio Technica 835b
Rycote Zeppelin w/ windsock
Two mic stands
One boom pole
and my personal Tascam DR-07 handheld recorder.

My main objective is to get rock slides, dust, dirt, debris etc. But I am also wanting to do some ambience recording of the desert air/wind/ birds etc.

My handheld DR-07 has too much noise for quiet ambience recording and it's pretty much impossible to EQ out without ruining the whole sound. So, is it acceptable to use the 416 and 835b in an XY configuration, or will these mics sound weird together since one will be hard left and the other hard right? Of course I'm going to experiment with it anyway but I just wanted to get some opinions in case I can change my mic reservation at the last minute!

THANKS!

as long as you know what the channels and mics are doing you should be fine... the field recording police arent going to come out to arrest you!

[BirthNight]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

as long as you know what the channels and mics are doing you should be fine... the field recording police arent going to come out to arrest you!

lol

Thanks Charles!

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by BirthNight

But I am also wanting to do some ambience recording of the desert air/wind/ birds etc.

Here's my advice on desert wind: Remember that wind does not make sound, what wind goes through makes sound. Listen to different kinds of plants and try to hear the differences. This may sound weird, but think of each plant as an instrument in an orchestra. Some make better wind sounds than others.

Also, I've found that the hotter it is the quieter the insects and birds become. They have enough sense to hide under rocks!

Try to get at least three minutes of airplane-free recordings....this means be sure to get comfy before pressing the record button.

Remember to bring a shoulder-launched AIM-9 to ward off any offensive airplanes. Weather looks good for wind recording tomorrow! Lower speed wind tends to make better sound IMO...it's more nuanced.
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick...92252%2C%20USA

I see your in LA: I got great recordings in Joshua Tree, that ended up being used in The English Patient.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by PoxyMusic

Here's my advice on desert wind: Remember that wind does not make sound, what wind goes through makes sound. Listen to different kinds of plants and try to hear the differences. This may sound weird, but think of each plant as an instrument in an orchestra. Some make better wind sounds than others.

Also, I've found that the hotter it is the quieter the insects and birds become. They have enough sense to hide under rocks!

Try to get at least three minutes of airplane-free recordings....this means be sure to get comfy before pressing the record button.

Remember to bring a shoulder-launched AIM-9 to ward off any offensive airplanes.

I see your in LA: I got great recordings in Joshua Tree, that ended up being used in The English Patient.

the thing to be aware of when recording wind is that turbulence will be heard by the microphone by the wind hitting your Rycote (or whatever) and by hitting your headphones. Ideally, you will be able to place the mic and then monitor inside a car, or in some other wind protected place- pay attention, because it sucks to get back and hear the wind buffeting the mic- and it has happened to me on a number of occasions.

I would say a 50 foot cable run will be enough distance if you are really still.

Also- velcro is your sworn enemy. Be painfully aware of the noises your bags can make.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

mono is VERY underrated.

A good sound in mono is far better than a mediocre sound in stereo...

True, but seriously noisy locations can sound better in a controlled MS stereo image. As the individual sounds of the noisy environement become spread out and localized, they
become gentler and more realistic, as opposed to being focused in the center of two speakers.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by aracu

True, but seriously noisy locations can sound better in a controlled MS stereo image. As the individual sounds of the noisy environement become spread out and localized, they
become gentler and more realistic, as opposed to being focused in the center of two speakers.

I have not seen MS typically workout well in the film sound world- usually it gets treated as a weirdo L-R by someone who misunderstands it.

It might be an option, but I am quite shy in turning over MS files typically-

[aracu]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I have not seen MS typically workout well in the film sound world- usually it gets treated as a weirdo L-R by someone who misunderstands it.

It might be an option, but I am quite shy in turning over MS files typically-

I understand what you mean. I process the MS on location, adjusting the stereo width according to what works best for the particular take, with bass cut if necessary, so post is dealing with a stereo recording which hopefully only needs to have the volume level adjusted. I wouldn't give post a bunch of MS files either.

There does not have to be a big difference between mono and stereo. An MS stereo recording can have a narrow stereo image. It can make a positive difference in the perception of a noisy background.

[charles maynes]

if that works I guess it works- personally I am reluctant to do eq and mixing in the field due to monitoring limitations. Do you also provide the MS un-eq'd tracks as well?

[aracu]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

if that works I guess it works- personally I am reluctant to do eq and mixing in the field due to monitoring limitations. Do you also provide the MS un-eq'd tracks as well?

No I don't provide un - eq'd tracks but I can see how it would be a safer although more complicated work process. I don't record everything in stereo or add bass cut to everything... only if it obviously is an improvement. I don't mix down multiple tracks (boom and lavs) on location.

If the stereo image of a coincident stereo recording is off, it can still be adjusted in post with a stereo imager and/or by panning.

I understand your reasoning of not doing anything which can be monitored better in a studio, especially in the context of a big budget film where the post production is very high quality.

But for example, a stereo recording made on a busy city sidewalk with lots of audible things happening simultaneously, can potentially be more convincing than a re-creation in post using sound design over a mono shotgun mic of the dialogue, because all detailed movement seen from the environement corresponds with the stereo recording.

The same situation recorded in mono might be unusable, with all the noise coming from the same point that the dialogue is coming from.

The controlled mid -side recording can create the illusion of there being less noise, because the noise is not all blurred together coming from the same point as in a mono recording.