How to record a Stradivarius

[Dragonfly]

How does one go about recording a Stradivarius Violin? I'm talking mic selection, position, pres, compression (if at all). I have two weeks to figure it out before the session starts. I'd be renting a lot of stuff so what I currently own is pointless.


From what I've been told, it is one from the Golden Period (1700-1720), and part of my family is from Cremona in Italy, so this is really exciting for me.

Dante

[robmix]

Same way I'd record any great instrument - start with a great room and keep the signal path short and simple. I'd start with a M-50 or M-49 into a GML, Martech or other high end clean pre. A well maintained Neve 1084 or 1073 has always worked for me as well. Don't get too close with the mic - remember these instruments were made to project out into a hall. I've recorded several Strad's and they all sound unique but not to the point that I needed to change my regular routine. When in doubt keep it simple.

[AnalogBob]

Good advice Strad's have alot more colour than most axes.. and the player can really interact with that colour so I would recomend using a clean pre.... and allow the instrument to do its thing...

[I Lurk]

Originally Posted by robmix

A well maintained Neve 1084 or 1073 has always worked for me as well.

and a Sans Amp on the DI chain as well ?

kidding

Seriously, don't you think a 1073 is not to coloured for a Strad ?


To answer the original question : think Bruel&Kjaer, or Schoeps in a very clean pre. Something like Millenia or Pendulum. I had luck tracking a "lesser" violin with both a B&K 4003 along with a m269c to add a bit of warmth. But it was not in a classical recording situation, and I guess I would have keep the B&K track in that case. Especially with a stellar violin like a Strad.

[Audy O]

Rent a GOOD room, a well designed studio or hall. I like M-49 or M-50s but I'm sure the classical recordists would also have some suggestions like B&K, Schoeps or DPA too. If you don't get to rehearse much and audition your set up, cover your bases by setting up pairs of different mics and record to separate tracks.

Good suggestion not to close mic it as you want to hear the instrument and the room. Plan on using high stands to get away from the floor and/or cables to suspend the mics from.

Also, the use of a clean preamp without too much coloration is a good one. What medium/format are your recording to? Radar 24 Nyquist at 192k would be good if you have access to it.

How about posting an mp3 for us later? Good luck with the recording!

Audy O

[krs]

Originally Posted by I Lurk

Especially with a stellar violin like a Strad.

Well don't get your hopes up to high...there are many shit sounding Strads out there.

The really good ones usually stay in the hands of the best soloists for decades. The ones that change hands are the ones that people decide they can't live with.

I've personally heard at least 2 Strads in concert that I thought we're definitely not all that. It also depends entirely on the player if they can access everything the instrument has to offer. (Sorry for the cliche, but as the Slutz are apt to say...give David Oistrakh an Eastman, and he will still sound like himself)

Yikes that was pretty negative!! ...Hope it IS one of the good ones and the session turns out great!

[I Lurk]

Originally Posted by krs

Well don't get your hopes up to high...there are many shit sounding Strads out there.

That is very true indeed

Originally Posted by krs

The really good ones usually stay in the hands of the best soloists for decades. The ones that change hands are the ones that people decide they can't live with.

Yes an no. You have a certain number that are little known because they stayed long in the hands of anonymous collection owners. Some are even played by musicians that had the chance to purchase them in a time when it was still possible to afford them. The best ones are indeed belonging to foundations that lend them for as little as 2 or 3 years to young talents or to very famous soloists.

The remaining number of Strads in the world should be under 700 instruments, less than 180 are considered excellent, the rest are not that good indeed.

A lot of people are claiming to own a real Strad though (more than a thousand I reckon), but they have not been certified.

by the way, there is this crasy Belgian guy making incredible violins, I wonder if I can find the link back. I've heard some, they are amazingly good and very strange looking to start with.

[krs]

Originally Posted by I Lurk

You have a certain number that are little known because they stayed long in the hands of anonymous collection owners.

That's true, but it's still not a lot. Stradivari has been extremely valubable for some time, and there are VERY few sleepers

Originally Posted by I Lurk

The best ones are indeed belonging to foundations that lend them for as little as 2 or 3 years to young talents or to very famous soloists.

And the worst! Incidentally, the two I'm referring to BOTH belonged a big foundation and are currently on loan to the 'next big things'. (The Windsor-Weinstein is one of those, and was in a boat that sunk in a harbour and remained underwater for something like two weeks. ... it sounds like it too)

Originally Posted by I Lurk

there is this crasy Belgian guy making incredible violins, I wonder if I can find the link back. I've heard some, they are amazingly good and very strange looking to start with.

Right now we are entering one of the best periods of violin making, and many of the strongest makers can be found in America!

Originally Posted by krs

Right now we are entering one of the best periods of violin making, and many of the strongest makers can be found in America!

Good point man.

I owned a beautiful Joseph Curtin violin a couple years ago... he's miles ahead of most modern violin makers like Matzuda and other guys.

Sold it off though for an 1850 Vuillaume (not the drug lol) Guarneri.

But enough on that subject for me....I've left my Juilliard classical violin days behind me so I can play real music lol, which involves a Gibson and a Marshall.

[I Lurk]

For you guys violin lovers, I found the link back.

Site is under construction for the English part, but you can see some of the photos

Strangest design idea comes from the assymetrical shape meant to cover more resonant frequencies

Sound is amazing last time I heard one

enjoy

http://www.gauthierlouppe.com/site_actu.htm

[Celloman]

The issue isn't whether you are recording a Stradivarius or not, but what the recording is for and the type of music.

If it's classical and you like the sound of the instrument, then you should rent the best concert hall for recording that you can. Then, I would use Schoeps CMC6/MK2 microphones, a mic pre like Millennia Media, Hardy, Bryston, Forrsell and the like, a great AD converter like Lavry, Hedd, Prism, UA or Mytek. Mic placement will depend on the hall, but you can start around 8 feet high and 8-10 feet back with omnis spaced at least a couple feet apart. All the rest is mic placement, so don't rush through the soundchecks.

Here is a soundclip of a Grancino violin and a Steinway American 9' Concert Grand in a concert hall at the University of Maryland. Gear used: 2 Schoeps CMC6/MK2 at 9 feet out and 9 feet high from violin. Bryston BMP-2 mic pre and Prism AD124 converter. This file is compressed to MP3 but there was no editing or any processing done (yet). Wish I could fit the whole WAV on my server :)

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmermag/MartinuMP3.mp3.mp3

Mike Mermagen

[bap]

I would feel inadequate recording a Strad, but do feel that a room is of the utmost importance.

I have played [piano] with several Strads and a few other great Italian fiddles. I knew Joe Curtain and Greg Alf while living in Ann Arbor and agree that they are great builders dedicated to their craft.... artists.

It is a tremendous responsibility and honor to record a 'great' artist [player] playing a 'great' instrument on a 'great' piece of art [music].

[elambo]

I wouldn't limit myself to just one mic or just one position. I'd go with a couple options simulateousy. A Schoeps would definitely be in there. I'd probably want to hear a C12 and an articulate Neumann in there also.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by krs

Well don't get your hopes up to high...there are many shit sounding Strads out there.

The really good ones usually stay in the hands of the best soloists for decades. The ones that change hands are the ones that people decide they can't live with.

Equally true for the vintage electric guitar craze:

Strad - Strat

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally Posted by I Lurk

For you guys violin lovers, I found the link back.

Site is under construction for the English part, but you can see some of the photos

Strangest design idea comes from the assymetrical shape meant to cover more resonant frequencies

Sound is amazing last time I heard one

enjoy

http://www.gauthierlouppe.com/site_actu.htm

Wow, that's gorgeous! Looking, I mean- I'd love to hear it!

[krs]

Those aren't violins, they're more like gambas or guitars with veins

Interesting workmanship for sure. It doens't look like they sound though - I mean no client list on the site? Yikes.

Now here's the top of the heap:
http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/
http://www.artistled.com/html/zygmuntowicz_bio.htm

[Celloman]

Originally Posted by krs

Those aren't violins, they're more like gambas or guitars with veins

Interesting workmanship for sure. It doens't look like they sound though - I mean no client list on the site? Yikes.

Now here's the top of the heap:
http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/
http://www.artistled.com/html/zygmuntowicz_bio.htm

Concerning Curtin violins... I performed some chamber music with Ilya Kaler and his Curtin violin sounds extraordinary in his hands. (He is a phenomenal violinist, too) I think he plays a Guarneri model.

Mike

[rwhitney]

Method of finding the sound is also important. In case you haven't tried this, what I've recently learned from the book "Mixing with Your Mind", is, when finding the right position for the mic, start with the microphone in your hand (rather than on the stand), and with a good pair of headphones with good isolation, and cranked loud enough that you can focus on the sound in the headphones rather than the bleed from the source, move the mic around the instrument at a close distance (about 2 feet) until you find the most resonant spot (meaning the deepest sound with the most overtones--not the brightest, or most present). At this exact position (or, as the book says, "angle", mount the mic on a stand, then move the stand toward or away from the source in a straight line, maintaining the angle of the diaphragm to the source at your starting position. With a violin, you probably want to be at least six feet back to avoid harshness. But always find the position by ear, not some theoretical distance. This could be your main pickup, only pickup, or one half of a coincident pair (I haven't used this method for a coincident pair, but I would guess that whether xy, ortf, or otherwise, the original main line of incidence will remain the same. I haven't tried that yet, though, so don't take my word for it). If you use a single microphone for a main pickup, I think I'd use an xy pair for the room/hall back further (using headphones to evaluate the placement). Headphones can be deceiving when it comes to reverberation, so it would be preferable to do a test recording and monitor over good speakers--even better in a room other than the one used for recording, since the reverberation of the playback will blend too much with the recording space).

I like ribbon mics on violin (I've used Coles 4040 and Royer R121), to also mitigate any annoying frequencies between 3.5 and 10k. The player makes more difference than the instrument.

I hope this helps, and that I haven't rambled...

[Recording David]

Originally Posted by Celloman

The issue isn't whether you are recording a Stradivarius or not, but what the recording is for and the type of music.

If it's classical and you like the sound of the instrument, then you should rent the best concert hall for recording that you can. Then, I would use Schoeps CMC6/MK2 microphones, a mic pre like Millennia Media, Hardy, Bryston, Forrsell and the like, a great AD converter like Lavry, Hedd, Prism, UA or Mytek. Mic placement will depend on the hall, but you can start around 8 feet high and 8-10 feet back with omnis spaced at least a couple feet apart. All the rest is mic placement, so don't rush through the soundchecks.

Here is a soundclip of a Grancino violin and a Steinway American 9' Concert Grand in a concert hall at the University of Maryland. Gear used: 2 Schoeps CMC6/MK2 at 8 feet out and 9 feet high from violin. Bryston BMP-2 mic pre and Prism AD124 converter. This file is compressed to MP3 but there was no editing or any processing done (yet). Wish I could fit the whole WAV on my server :)

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmermag/MartinuMP3.mp3.mp3

Mike Mermagen

That's a lovely recording, Mike. How did you place the musicians? Did you stand the violin in front of the sideways-on piano?

I think you've achieved great clarity for a direct-to-stereo recording - well done!

If you want space to host the .wav I have FTP space that I'd give details for.

Well, mic placement is all personal taste of course, but your safest bet (if you're not recording in a beautiful concert hall) is about 4 feet above the scroll, and aimed at about a 30 degree angle directly at the bridge. The projection of the violin body is upward first and foremost.

The type of violinist you're recording is crucial though. A lot of players move quite a bit while performing, and sometimes they just can't help it because it's out of habit.

Also, there's the "soloist" type violinist and then the "chamber" ensemble type violinist. Dynamic range from one violinist to another is going to vary greatly. With some players you could easily think you mistakenly had your compression jacked up while recording them lol...they literally play is if they're trying to project in a concert hall.

A room mic is definitely not a bad idea... the overhead can sometimes get a bit glassy on the highs.

I've never actually recorded another violinist before. I'm just a violinist myself who has been recorded and I've taken note of a few things I would've changed had I been engineering (or known more about mic placement at that time.)

[krs]

You still have the Vuillaume? (Let me guess - you sold it and bought a Curtin AND an SSL??)

Haha... nope still have it. And keepin it.

I do kinda miss the Curtin from time to time... aesthetically it was one of the most beautiful instruments I've ever seen.

edit** hey I'm curious about that other violin maker you mentioned. I'd never heard of him before. Are they in the area of 50 grand like the Curtin violins?

[Celloman]

Originally Posted by Recording David

That's a lovely recording, Mike. How did you place the musicians? Did you stand the violin in front of the sideways-on piano?

I think you've achieved great clarity for a direct-to-stereo recording - well done!

If you want space to host the .wav I have FTP space that I'd give details for.

In this case, I did not place the musicians. They performed the way they felt comfortable or as they would in a concert. The imaging, though not precise, is as they were set up, with the violinist standing to the left of the pianist. I shifted the omni pair slightly left towards the violinist so he would not be hard panned left in the mix.

The ensemble is here: www.aspenensemble.com of which I am the cellist as well.

Thanks for the FTP offer.. let me know what to do.

My email is: Mike.Mermagen@gmail.com

Thanks,
Mike

Originally Posted by Celloman

The ensemble is here: www.aspenensemble.com of which I am the cellist as well.

Cool. I went to Aspen Music Festival for 3 summers when DeLay was still teaching there.

Good times... with the exception of the orchestra rehearsals that seemed to DRAG on and on. And on, and on and on lol. I think Zinman caught me starting to doze off once lol

[krs]

Cool to know there are some other classical cats on here

Jordan, hang on to that Vuillaume (you got good papers??) A nice example (IMHO) still has room to grow

You got a nice retirement package hooked up there ....

It's from Bein & Fushi in Chicago- so yep the papers are good.

I played 2 Strads and a Guarneri at the time when I bought the Vuillaume, just for the hell of it to see how big the differences were.

Didn't like either of the Strads. The Guarneri was amazing. And about $2 million more than the Strads lol. But overall I liked the Vuillaume better than Strads actually, maybe because I've always liked the darker richer Guarneri sound, and the Vuillaume is a Guarneri model.

It is ridiculous though how these violins' prices skyrocket so quickly.

[Celloman]

Originally Posted by jordan19

Cool. I went to Aspen Music Festival for 3 summers when DeLay was still teaching there.

Good times... with the exception of the orchestra rehearsals that seemed to DRAG on and on. And on, and on and on lol. I think Zinman caught me starting to doze off once lol

I am principal of the Aspen Chamber Symphony... were you in Festival Orchestra?

Mike

Originally Posted by Celloman

I am principal of the Aspen Chamber Symphony... were you in Festival Orchestral?

Mike

Yeah I was in the Festival Orchestra. (If I was a better sightreader I might have ended up in the Chamber Symphony lol.)

My last year there was the last year Robert Harth was there. Hard to believe he died so young... he was a good guy.

I haven't really stayed in contact with much of anyone from out there or in the classical music world really... I ran into Michael Stern and Josh Bell here in New York last year and surprisingly he actually remembered me lol... but I've probably burned a few bridges though here and there for not taking things as seriously as I would've needed to if I was gonna pursue classical music.

[mangoid]

I have only recorded classical violin, so i can't speak to other genres from direct experience, but for my classical recordings i've achieved very good results with Schoeps Collettes and a Millennia HV-B3. You may also want to try a well-maintained Neumann M 50 and a high-end ribbon mic (e.g. Royer R-122 or SF-24 or Coles 4038). As for preamp alternatives, consider the Buzz MA-2.2, which i haven't heard on violin but its very fast transient response and great detail might make it a fine choice. Mytek, Lavry, or Nyquist converters as a minimum. Of course room, player, and mic placement have already been addressed.

[jaba]

I'm also a violinist and have recently become very interested in recording and doing stuff 'myself'. I auditioned many mics and conclu