So I just recorded John Cage's 4'33"...

[Arthur Stone]

JOHN CAGE'S 4'33'' FOR CHRISTMAS NUMBER ONE 2010

Cage Against the Machine

At last, some sanity...

[Yannick]

I find this truly a great idea.

But it makes me wonder, what happens when we give a recording of 4'33" to a "good" mastering studio ? Very loud hiss/room noise at -0.2 dB ?



Anything beats Xmas songs all over the radio.

[PoxyMusic]

That's the problem with modern composers…their works are far too short.

Earthworks on 4"33" LOL. Talk about the wrong mics for the job!

[Ozpeter]

There's a good item related to this on the BBC news site at BBC News - The power of silence considering many aspects of noise and silence in the modern world.

[PoxyMusic]

BTW us sound designers would love to get our grubby little hands on that recording. Crowd presence is a tough sound effect to come by.

[Arthur Stone]

Ho Ho Shhh...

John Cage cover aims for Christmas No 1 with the sound of silence | Music | The Guardian

[Studiodawg]

When I recorded 4'33", I measured 4 minutes and 33 seconds back from when the pianist began to move just prior to clapping...ambient audience definitely makes the recordingthumbsup

[klaukholm]

With modern good quality pres, mics and ADs you should not have electronic noise problems. I have said many times that the earthworks mics are unsuitable for classical main rig duty due to noise.

By the way, those of you who classify Cage as contemporary, it is back to school time.
Cage is an ancient relic.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I have said many times that the earthworks mics are unsuitable for classical main rig duty due to noise.

Recording of "nothing" doesn't really bode well for ANY mic.

This thread is over 2 years old - I didn't have my Schoeps mics, and the EW's did a fabulous job for me many times.

I think the original point of this thread was that you can NOT have perfect electronic silence. I don't care if it's unnoticeable or not, there is inherent noise in every mic, preamp, etc., so regardless of the mic choice there is going to be something there. Nothing can capture the real concert-hall feeling of this piece (of course).

Anyway, I really think the dogging of EW mics on this forum is a little silly, especially when the DPA 4061 is praised almost universally and has the same inherent flaw.

/soapbox

[klaukholm]

Well, I have also said many times that the 4061 is unsuitable for main rig duties.
I just recorded an orchestral piece from the mid 80s which has a large component of single instruments unaccompanied, dissapearing into silence. Several 5-15 second GPs. I beg to differ with your statement that you cannot be free of (audible) electronic noise. Electronic noise should not be noticeable in the main rig. If electronic noise is audible, you have a problem that needs to be solved.

I dare you to detect the noise level of an mkh80 going into a grace pre in a orchestra/concert hall setting.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I beg to differ with your statement that you cannot be free of (audible) electronic noise. Electronic noise should not be noticeable in the main rig.

I didn't say that. I said you cannot be free of self-noise of some sort, even if it is inaudible for all intents and purposes (and frankly, that depends on your listening volume...).

I'm talking hypotheticals here...

[klaukholm]

I disagree, it is my opinion that one should always choose a main rig that has a self noise level below that of the room when recording sensitive soft material.
For that job the 4061 and the EW are the wrong tools.

Another hint, when recording 4.33, you are recording the audience, not the pianist, as the audience is the performer in this piece. The piece is not about silence at all, rather the reaction and dynamic of an audience in face of this (originally surprising) turn of events.
It is no longer surprising as we all know the piece, but there is still an audience dynamic.

It would have been interesting to have a archival recording of the premiere, just as it would be nice to be a fly on the wall in Paris for the Sacre premiere.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Another hint, when recording 4.33, you are recording the audience, not the pianist, as the audience is the performer in this piece. The piece is not about silence at all, rather the reaction and dynamic of an audience in face of this (originally surprising) turn of events.
It is no longer surprising as we all know the piece, but there is still an audience dynamic.

Yes, I quite know this.

When I posted this thread I had just recorded an encore for a recital. I had no idea it was happening.

Originally Posted by Arthur Stone

JOHN CAGE'S 4'33'' FOR CHRISTMAS NUMBER ONE 2010

Cage Against the Machine

At last, some sanity...

I wonder what kind of dither they used for the final recording...

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by Corran

and I realized no matter how good the equipment is and how low the noise figures are, there will never be a live recording of 4'33" that isn't contaminated by electrical noise of some sort.

That's kind of a let down, isn't it?

Anyone else happen to have the opportunity to record this piece? This was the encore to a new music recital. Any special ways you went about it?

Couldn't resist this thread; brings up so many interesting points.
Which is more important, the performance, or the composition?

If John Cage falls over in a wood, will anyone hear it?
Why bother recording such a work in the first place, arguably an abstract or experimental piece that's actually divorced from the performing musicians themselves?

Why couldn't you simply parse out 4'33 of an empty file in a DAW? Then you could control the noise floor and such. Otherwise, you'll get 4'33 of chair squeaks, coughing, and butts shifting on wood chairs, followed by awkward applause. Is that what Cage would have been after?

[jchadstopherhuez]

Originally Posted by Corran

and I realized no matter how good the equipment is and how low the noise figures are, there will never be a live recording of 4'33" that isn't contaminated by electrical noise of some sort.

That's kind of a let down, isn't it?

Anyone else happen to have the opportunity to record this piece? This was the encore to a new music recital. Any special ways you went about it?

i've recorded a few performances of 4'33''...the last one got squashed in mastering.

i can barely listen to it anymore.

you kids and your volume wars and loud...uh, music.

best,

jchristopherhughes

[Arthur Stone]

Silence has real power - any event that includes silence is a testament to that, particularly mass events. Silence is also a tool of the oppressor, and the meditator.

There's also a Gestalt perspective where the silence, normally the ground, becomes the figure...very subversive.

[joelpatterson]

There's also the perspective: "This is idiotic bullshit."

[Remoteness]

Joel, you know you're my hero, right?

[joelpatterson]

Cool, Steve! You've chosen your heroes wisely...

[Arthur Stone]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

There's also the perspective: "This is idiotic bullshit."

Funnily enough Joel, that was my initial impression.

[joelpatterson]

And a natural, possibly universal reaction, I'm guessing...

So-- I for one should know that living on the cutting edge and coming up with innovations that turn things on their head is going to be greeted with skepticism, generally-- and the little nugget of brilliant insight that your innovation embodies may struggle to find acceptance-- and the judgment you're looking for is way, way down the line-- you're gambling that trends will prove you "right," or at least "clever"...

And, in the end, who knows. This all reminds me of the time I was paused at a stoplight, and there was a guy on the streetcorner who was most probably totally insane-- blabbering a mile a minute, kind of free associating-- coherent, for the most part, but arguing with the thin air. And it was almost fascinating-- trying to follow his logic, marveling at the sheer perversity and pathos of it all... in the moment before the light changed, I thought, "put this guy on a stage, charge admission, this is 'entertainment' of a whole new order."

Could have been the birth of something-- but then the damn light turned green!

[Arthur Stone]

YouTube - X Factor 4, The Final, Leon Wins! (itv.com/xfactor)

YouTube - John Cage "4'33"

[Sheikyearbouti]

Originally Posted by Arthur Stone

Ho Ho Shhh...

John Cage cover aims for Christmas No 1 with the sound of silence | Music | The Guardian

I will buy it today. If the whole UK gets 5 minutes of silence on Radio 1 it would be very symbolic (as it was when RATM sung in Finsbury Park "Turn on the radio, nah f**k it turn it off... Shut down the devil sound"). dfegad