Suggestions about micing clarinet, violin and flute

[Ronski]

Hi! I have an overdub session coming where flute, clarinet and violin are playing live at the same time. How would you record them? Close micing is necessary because I´m not sure about the roles of the instruments in arrangements... I have two MD441´s, two U89´s, two BK (4000-something) omnis, a stereo ORTF Schoeps-mic and a Studer A779 mixer. As far as I know the room will be a "regular" apartment livinroom, so it might not be acoustically perfect. What would you suggest? What micing technique gives the widest possibilities when mixing?

Thanks for your help!

[jnorman]

my first choice there would be a close-spaced pair of the B&K omnis out about 5 feet from the players. let them control their own balance. second choice would be the schoeps ORTF pair out around 7-8 feet. digital verb to match the space of the rest of the mix.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Ronski

two BK (4000-something) omnis

I wish I had a pair of these! Don't forget about M-S. You could use the U89's to make a pair. Don't be afraid to move the players as well as the mics when using a stereo pair.

[Jim vanBergen]

If its an overdub session, you need to sound exactly like the original session.
Whether that was close-miked or stereo pair, you need to sound identical. Rent what you need. Go to a better room if you need. Otherwise, all you are doing is wasting time.

PERIOD.

Cheers!

JvB

[Ronski]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

If its an overdub session, you need to sound exactly like the original session.
Whether that was close-miked or stereo pair, you need to sound identical. Rent what you need. Go to a better room if you need. Otherwise, all you are doing is wasting time.

PERIOD.

Cheers!

JvB

You misunderstood me, with "overdub session" I meant they are playing their tracks on top of a band recorded earlier, they are not the whole group themselves.

The thing is I need to mic them in a way that gives me lots of different possibilities when mixing. I dont´t know what they are going to play in each song so I can´t really make only one micing desicion for aesthetic reasons... I quess I need at least two different room pairs (for distant and more close up ensemble sound) and close mic for each instrument.

[Audiop]

Schoeps mid/close distance for a basic stereo recording. B&K A-B a little further away for a more "roomy" sound and use what's left to spot mic.

Go home, relax, and mix to taste! :-)


/Peter

[boojum]

I sometimes put a Schoeps X-Y or M-S in the center of a DPA (B&K) 4006 TL pair. I do them in close to the same vertical plane to reduce or eliminate phasing problems and keep the distance of the A-B mics to ~6" on either side to eliminate phasing problems. It is compact but needs a good sturdy stand.

I can play with the M-S ratio later and add the A-B as needed. I have not really tested this a lot but the few instances I have used it it worked fine. The absolute worst that can happen is that you have two tracks you cannot use. But that is doubtful.

Cheers

[Plush]

I suggest you go to a recording studio to do this work. What you propose will sound like some kind of a band with overdubs done in a living room. Total Cheese!

Why do people new to recording propose that doing it in a poor way with a poor room will sound acceptable?

Total cheese, total nonsense.

Totally cheapie too. You're cheap!

Either you rock or you suck.

[huub]

You're assuming he's new to recording and the room sounds crap,
both these things you do not know.
And you're unfriendly.

But of course this is the world of online forums, where people enjoy being unfriendly.

And I'm a hippy.

[Plush]

I totally discount your post, hippy huub.
It's a living room in an apartment. It has the small room sound and it's unavoidable.
It will have the "small room sound."

I'm not unfriendly, I'm a professional.

Usually I try to dispense advice that will help. At some other times like this one, I am frustrated by the jerky notion that because they are too cheap to do it right, they'll just set up at home and do it any way they want.

[Audiop]

Jose Gonzales has recorded some of his very well received material in his kitchen.

I have CD named 'Wrecking ball' that I think is recorded in someones livingroom.. some guy named Daniel involved..

A guy in my town (commercial artist) has done a very nice recording of upright bass, dobro, voice and violin in a living room using a simple ribbon blumlein.

The list could go on and how fortunate we all are that these people never consulted the "Professionals" at Gearslutz..


/Peter

[PlugHead]

I won't approach arguing with Plush - he has strong opinions, and tho he is a professional, I wouldn't say his discourse is anything near 'professional'...

IME, I'd suggest against strictly stereo micing: it will afford way less opportunity to alter/mix the instruments separately come mix time.

I would approach it close micing each instrument - U89 in cardioid on clarinet, the other U89 in cardioid on violin, and a 441 for the flute - all players spaced a bit apart, and the cardioids placed strategically to involve the least spill into each other's mics. I would also consider setting the DPA omni's up as a spaced pair (ORTF or X/Y depending) for mixing in should you be able to use the room. Also, if you have baffles/gobos, I'd use them to avoid sill between instruments if they are close together...

Lastly, create the 'space' later by creatively panning the instruments, and adding FX - sure, it's not a 'real' room, but hopefully you come out with something useable, and if not, chalk it up to experience, and then consider tracking in a dedicated and great sounding room...

hope this helps,

[newyorker42]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

I won't approach arguing with Plush - he has strong opinions, and tho he is a professional, I wouldn't say his discourse is anything near 'professional'...

IME, I'd suggest against strictly stereo micing: it will afford way less opportunity to alter/mix the instruments separately come mix time.

I would approach it close micing each instrument - U89 in cardioid on clarinet, the other U89 in cardioid on violin, and a 441 for the flute - all players spaced a bit apart, and the cardioids placed strategically to involve the least spill into each other's mics. I would also consider setting the DPA omni's up as a spaced pair (ORTF or X/Y depending) for mixing in should you be able to use the room. Also, if you have baffles/gobos, I'd use them to avoid sill between instruments if they are close together...

Lastly, create the 'space' later by creatively panning the instruments, and adding FX - sure, it's not a 'real' room, but hopefully you come out with something useable, and if not, chalk it up to experience, and then consider tracking in a dedicated and great sounding room...

hope this helps,

Having been a tv composer who did many sessions where we sweetened synth orchestra with live musicians (to make it seem like it all is live), I can vouch for the approach above as the best way I personally know given your circumstances.

It still is going to be hard to eliminate what Plush has dubbed the cheese factor... Fact of life when you don't do things the best way from the beginning.

[Ronski]

Originally Posted by Plush

I suggest you go to a recording studio to do this work. What you propose will sound like some kind of a band with overdubs done in a living room. Total Cheese!

Why do people new to recording propose that doing it in a poor way with a poor room will sound acceptable?

Total cheese, total nonsense.

Totally cheapie too. You're cheap!

Either you rock or you suck.

I would like to point out that it´s the band/label who is cheap... When I´m hired to record and mix an album I don´t usually book studio time with my own money for them, I rather do the best I can with the given resources...

Luckily the room wasn´t too bad, It was fairly big, with nice smooth ringing reverb. I went with cardioid U89´s on violin and flute and 441 on the clarinet. ORTF near to capture the group and omni AB further away to capture more distant sound. Not "cheesy" sound, so no problems yet...

[stampen]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Jose Gonzales has recorded some of his very well received material in his kitchen.

I have CD named 'Wrecking ball' that I think is recorded in someones livingroom.. some guy named Daniel involved..

/Peter

It's a nice album but the sound is really nothing to write home about. I remember when it came out a lot of magzines had that line "He recorded it in his own living room" like it was someting good. Nice songs on the album but the sound of it is not.. I wish he would've done it in a nice sounding studio.

/A

[Audiop]

Sure, my point though was that musicians are artists and they can communicate their message in lots of ways.

Music is subjective.

And of course, there was a reason I mentioned Gonsales and Lanois in the same post.. ;-)

BTW I think (but I'm not sure) some of Eric Bibbs stuff is recorded in normal rooms as well. Doesn't hurt my ears to listen at that.


/Peter

[allcentury]

hi guys, i'm recording a violinist but having trouble getting any "body" out of the sound. right now i'm using a condensor mic with the stand behind the player and the mic sitting over the shoulder angled and pointed towards the body of the violin.

I'm getting decent tone but the recording is very thin, much more than how my ears hear it naturally. could i be doing something better? thank you

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by allcentury

hi guys, i'm recording a violinist but having trouble getting any "body" out of the sound. right now i'm using a condensor mic with the stand behind the player and the mic sitting over the shoulder angled and pointed towards the body of the violin.

I'm getting decent tone but the recording is very thin, much more than how my ears hear it naturally. could i be doing something better? thank you

If you have a ribbon mic, or access to one, that would be my first suggestion. Coles 4038/AEA R-84/Royer R-121, or even any of the cheap chinese ones - def. worth trying, esp. if you find the sound to be anemic. Ribbons and strings/brass are a great marriage...

Otherwise, if you are in a good (neutral, but 'warm') room, back up the mic: experiment with 2-4 feet above, and out in front of the instrument - getting too close to the bow will (of course) accentuate the 'scratch' of the bow - if your room is good, this should help dissipate the edginess of the bow/instrument...

hope this helps,

[GordZilla]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Jose Gonzales has recorded some of his very well received material in his kitchen.

I have CD named 'Wrecking ball' that I think is recorded in someones livingroom.. some guy named Daniel involved..

A guy in my town (commercial artist) has done a very nice recording of upright bass, dobro, voice and violin in a living room using a simple ribbon blumlein.

The list could go on and how fortunate we all are that these people never consulted the "Professionals" at Gearslutz..


/Peter

Amen there brother

I have heard more than a few professional sounding efforts that were tracked in a living room... if the space sounds okay then by all means.

[allcentury]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

If you have a ribbon mic, or access to one, that would be my first suggestion. Coles 4038/AEA R-84/Royer R-121, or even any of the cheap chinese ones - def. worth trying, esp. if you find the sound to be anemic. Ribbons and strings/brass are a great marriage...

Otherwise, if you are in a good (neutral, but 'warm') room, back up the mic: experiment with 2-4 feet above, and out in front of the instrument - getting too close to the bow will (of course) accentuate the 'scratch' of the bow - if your room is good, this should help dissipate the edginess of the bow/instrument...

hope this helps,

thank you jay! the ribbon mic was the answer to my prayers, what a difference

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by allcentury

thank you jay! the ribbon mic was the answer to my prayers, what a difference

Glad I could help!

[mixedupsteve]

I've had good success on clarinet with a SDC down by the bell and another up by the holes about 1 ft away from the source. Mix them in.
On violin the best close sound I've gotten is the DPA minature mics on the under string mount.
These methods will give you a very close sound though.

I would try the 441s on the clarinet and the U89s on the violin and flute. Move them around while monitoring with headphones until you find the spot.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

On violin the best close sound I've gotten is the DPA minature mics on the under string mount.
These methods will give you a very close sound though.

+1

Those 4060/61's are some of the best solutions for strings - some of my best acoustic bass recordings have been done this same way. However, spill can be horrible if drums are close and/or too loud...

Great, realistic sounds for close micing tho...

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

I've had good success on clarinet with a SDC down by the bell and another up by the holes about 1 ft away from the source. .

ICK!!! As a clarinetist, I would throw a fit if somebody tried to mic me that way. If there is one thing you avoid, it is any microphone anywhere near the bell of the instrument. For clarinet, the sound will be unusably close at any closer than about 2-3 feet back. The instrument's production noises will not be pretty (from reed noise to key clicks, etc...)

For a unified sound, go over the instrument. I usually recommend about arms length out. The only time that ever changes is in PA gigs where there is some outside influence that forces me in closer or positioned differently.

--Ben

[wildplum]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

ICK!!! As a clarinetist, I would throw a fit if somebody tried to mic me that way. If there is one thing you avoid, it is any microphone anywhere near the bell of the instrument. For clarinet, the sound will be unusably close at any closer than about 2-3 feet back. The instrument's production noises will not be pretty (from reed noise to key clicks, etc...)

For a unified sound, go over the instrument. I usually recommend about arms length out. The only time that ever changes is in PA gigs where there is some outside influence that forces me in closer or positioned differently.

--Ben

would you go in closer or still 2-3 feet off if the situation were "live in the studio" (no PA), 4 piece jazz (Bass, drum, clarinet and oud- main lead)?

[fifthcircle]

No, I wouldn't... When I'm doing jazz in the studio, I set up the studio in a way that accomplishes a couple things.

1. The musicians can see and hear themselves for communication. Without that, the group is sunk before it begins.

2. Bleed is minimized and/or managed. Use the nulls of your mics and choose mics based on their strengths that help you out for the session. For example in a very loud room, I'll go hypercardiod on the mic and often use a ribbon (a Beyer 160 is nice on clarinet) or a dynamic (such as a Sennheiser 441). Similar condensers also can work- ie a Schoeps MK41.

3. Stratigically placed absorbtive gobos- I usually start between drums and bass with a gobo that allows for the bass mic to minimize drum bleed but is small enough so players can see and hear.

My feeling is that you should never compromise your sound in the studio. It is one thing on a live gig because of the outside influences from monitors to PA to an overly small stage. In the studio you should be able work around those issues.

--Ben