Choir Mics Cardioid or Omni

[Larry Elliott]

For those who use “spot mics” on choral groups about 100 voices - between the back row of the orchestra and the front of the choir - what pattern mics do you use. I have tended away from cardioid recently because of the individual voices that are highlighted.

Generally I have sufficient level of the choir from the main pair but need a little more clarity on the words.

Thank you

Larry

[sonicdefault]

It's a huge matter of taste and approach of course, but with a group that size, I prefer using cardioids, and perhaps use more than two mics. If you're getting a spotting effect, you can either place them at a greater distance or modify the angle. As always the mics you use may alter the effectiveness of any method.

There are just so many variables, that this really is a matter of preference. When combining a live orchestra with a choir, some people prefer using omnis and allowing greater bleed between the ensemble. Personally, I've had better success using quiet cardioids to create better separation. IMO the difference between cardioiod and omni patterns when set at an optimal distance, is marginal compared to the benefit of greater rejection at the rear.

What kind of mics have you been using?


-SD

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by sonicdefault

It's a huge matter of taste and approach of course, but with a group that size, I prefer using cardioids, and perhaps use more than two mics.
What kind of mics have you been using?
-SD

Agreed - I normally use 3 or 4 mics depending on venue. Have used Neumann TLM170, Schoeps Mk21, Mk2 or Mk4. The TLM170 were ideal because of switch able pattern but I dont have access to these or the Schoeps now and am looking at purchasing 4 mics probably SD as I normally record in concerts so visual impact is important.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Larry

[boojum]

It all depends on the space. Great acoustics call for good omnis. I do not have a lot of places where I am with good acoustics. When I do a local chorale I fly a pair of good omni's above the director's head and aimed down into the center of the chorale. I use a pair of cards stage right for the soloists. If the acoustics were worse I would use cards over the director's head. Try both and see which is better. That is the best way.

Cheers

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

Agreed - I normally use 3 or 4 mics depending on venue. Have used Neumann TLM170, Schoeps Mk21, Mk2 or Mk4. The TLM170 were ideal because of switch able pattern but I dont have access to these or the Schoeps now and am looking at purchasing 4 mics probably SD as I normally record in concerts so visual impact is important.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Larry

You're quite welcome! It sounds like you're on the right track. I hope you get some good mics you like. I've been interested in those new sennheiser MKH mics. I had a brief discussion with a guy awhile back, who said he really liked them. They're low profile, but they're not cheap.

-SD

[David Spearritt]

Very difficult problem this one, especially when the brass and percussion are only a metre away from the front row of the choir. Omnis are best for maintaining choral blend and avoid individual voices sticking out, but the spill from the orchestra is usually intolerable. Cardioids and fig8's can minimise the orchestral spill, but can sound thin and lacking in bass, EQ can help. If cardioids or 8's are used, you need more of them to record a uniform sound front.

We have had excellent results with ribbon fig8's angled so the null is on the band. An SF24 in the middle and two Coles 4040 outriggers, sounds delicious.

[Jim vanBergen]

Depends on the proximity of the mics to the choir and the orchestra. I prefer the sound of omnis or subcardioids when there is some separation between orch and voices and good acoustics in the building. When the acoustics or the separation falters, I go to cardioids and get closer to focus- or do a close pair and a medium pair to blend if there are no soloists requirements. There's a lot of "it depends" in all of the answers you will get. Make sure you bring options and an open mind! For broadcast, I tend to setup two or three options and use whatever sounds best in situ.

I think Spearritt's approach is excellent for those tight setups!

I have also had HUGE choirs of 600+ where the only thing I could do was put condenser mics on tall stands (located within the group) firing down at a 45 degree angle into the choir to stay away from both the PA and the orchestra.

Still, when the hall is right and the maestro sets everything up correctly and balances naturally, you can sometimes use the minimalist approach for stellar recordings. It's great- when it works.

Cheers!

JvB

[mrsteaks]

Both David and Jim nailed it. The point is that there is no Holy Grail! Room, ensemble size, orchestra size - all come into play. At the risk of repeating, I use an SF12 with Fat Heads (yup, those things) as outriggers, placing the mics between the choir and orchestra, and angled (once again) so that the orchestra is in the nulls (or as close to the nulls as I can get). I've placed the SF12 so that it was damn near flat (rear lobes pointed at the ceiling), and flown high over the center of the choir, and in that particular application - yummy! As Jim says, if you have the luxury, try different approaches and keep the one you like!

[sonare]

This is for an orchestra/ choir situation-- so if there is not a reasonable balance the results will show it regardless. Assuming there is, you are often only looking for clarity rather than amplitude, and several smooth cardioids across the front (up high enough so that they are about half the height of the chorus) are the best option. I would stay away from ribbons for the reason that the transient response of condensers will help you get what you need with less gain.

Aim the rear of the mic towards the orchestra. Omnis would be a disaster. And pity the singers on the front row-- they don't stand a chance! In the event that the conductor and percussionists are reasonable, plywood reflectors behind the perc section will also help control bleed.

Rich

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by sonare

I would stay away from ribbons for the reason that the transient response of condensers will help you get what you need with less gain.

Rich

Hi Rich!

Do you suggest that the transient response of a mic is dependent on the settings of the preamp?


/Peter

[David Spearritt]

Do you need "transient response" for choral singing?

[sonare]

Since the purpose of spots on a chorus with orchestra is to make them more easily heard I would answer "absolutely."

For chorus without orchestra I would say "no." And a condenser will always have faster transient response than a ribbon-- which has more mass. BTW my setup on chorus without orchestra is SF24 with MK2 flankers (down about 6-8bB). These go several things-- keeps the phase on the corners cohererent, extends the LF, and opens up the sound overall. What I DON'T want is a bright condenser sound that fights with the rest of the sound picture. With orchestra I will put 3 or 4 TLM193 across the chorus-- depends on size.

I personally cannot imagine how varying the Q on the micamp can do more than modify the LF response. That is a different question than if the CHOICE of micamo will change the transients. Try a Milennia or Grace and see what I mean. A ribbon will require about 15dB more gain compared to most condensers.

If you prefer ribbons then fine. It is all personal taste, jah?

Rich

[Shadow_7]

I tend to improve perceived transient response when recording at the DSD level on my Korg MR-1000. As opposed to 24/44.1 on the same device. DSD dithered back down to 24/44.1 keeps some of that detail. My OMNI mics otherwise blur the words IMO. Not that I need crystal clear words if they're singing french and I don't know the language. But if I'm trying to understand the director who's speaking with his back to the mics between songs it helps. If only from a recorded rehearsal perspective.

[JEGG]

Remember as you move an omni in closer (than where you might put a cardioid) the relative difference in distances from the microphone to different individual singers *increases*.

So, there is no one right way. Sometimes an omni will bring a better blend-other times it will take away the blend. Because there are a lot of different factors operating in different situations.