Rock Band Live Recording...

[joaquin]

Hi. I have to record one of my Favorite Bands (TERESO) this friday in a local club here in Miami. I'm planning on taking my 002 with an ISA428 and a RED 1 so I'll be able to use the 8 ADATs in plus the 4 preamps in the Digi box. I Plan to use a 57 in the snare, a D112 in the Kick, 414s for OH, D6 for the bass + line, two more 57s for the guitars and splitt the signal from the 58s in the two vocals...for this I'm planning to use two Whirlwind IMP-SPLITTERs.
First question:1) since I'm bringing my own mics, wich will have to share the space with the FOH mics...is there something that I should be aware of in terms of mic placement??
2) what other two mics would you suggest that I MUST have...may be audience, toms, more guitar....? This is going to be for a Live concert video.
3) really... any suggetion that may help is very welcome!!

[joaquin]

I just talked to a friend and his suggestion was to simplify the whole thing and just get lines out pre-fader from the direct outs in he PA console. I'd done that before and the problem was that some desk do not have direct outs, so I had to use the inserts...just tip in, but if they are using the inserts already....I guess that I'll have to get some sort of splitter....I'm going to talk to the guy in charge of the live sound and figure it out...Thanks.

[joaquin]

Men...this is the one person thread!!
Anyway...The job is getting a lot smaller ...there's no money for nothing (I needed to buy some pieces...), and they only want enough quality for promotion... but the good news is that the console in the House has direct outs!! Men, I like doing this shite!!. Eventually I'll built me a nice, small, remote system. What I'll be doing this Friday is: I'll bring my 002R with an old ALesis ADAT, 2 snakes: 8 RCA to TRS for the ADAT and 8 TRS to TRS for the 002. I already got me the HOSA cheap snakes and hooked everything...I'm using the 8 ADAT's inputs via light-pipe from the ADAT and the 8 analog ins from the Digi. ...16TRACKS my Friend!!! all balanced and at 48Khz 24bit...herr...the ADAT is 20bit...but no issue. Unfortunately I'll have to clock the Digi to the ADAT...
I want to use an extra pair of mics for the audience, ...any suggestions? I'm thinking a spaced pair of cardioids at each side of the stage pointing at the audience...we'll see.
Thanks.......................Joaquin.

[tomhaelvoet]

hi

your setup looks nice, it worked in an equal way for me (1 rme multiface + adat)

however: watch out with the adat: those cinches are expecting -10dbV. is there a dedicated send-level on he FOH so you can take back a little ?

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by tomhaelvoet

hi

your setup looks nice, it worked in an equal way for me (1 rme multiface + adat)

however: watch out with the adat: those cinches are expecting -10dbV. is there a dedicated send-level on he FOH so you can take back a little ?

Wow Tom...that's an interesting question... today, I tried the Alesis inputs with a small Mackie that I have, using the insert's out (tip) and it wasn't a problem, it translated pretty good to the meters in PT. Maybe the insert's out is -10!? I'll make sure that is working properly...if not, I think that I may take the Mackie and use it as some sort of attenuator!?
Thanks for the advise...I'll look into it

[alphajerk]

watch those direct outs as they will have any gates/eq/etc that the FOH guy puts in the mix... i would almost go back to your original plan... the other thing you can do short of doing that is take the FOH mix and put up some room mics [i recently did a MS config for the room mics and it worked out REALLY well] so that would be 4 tracks there, unless the FOH mix is mono, then its just 3. then grab whatever other channels you want, usually VOX for sure, guitars, drum sub, bass.

its better tho to mic yourself because the intentions of the FOH guy and your intentions usually dont mesh at all.

[joaquin]

Hey Thanks Alpha!! I'm pretty sure that the direct outs are pre-fader...straight from the preamp gain stage...OUT. Any way I'll follow your suggestion and instead of the spaiced pair for the audience, I'll set them at the FOH position where I'll be standing...I'll try to get a nice room image, plus I'll grab a send of the Master out from the FOH console, and I'll have all the individual channels for a later mix. I have at the moment 16 ins...should be enough.
tomhaelvoet, I tried the inputs on the ADAT with a +4dbu out and you were right...they are too hot. I'm thinking that instead of adding more circuitry and noise, I'll just ask the AE in charge of the Live Mix to lower a bit the input...we'll see. I know the Guy and he's really good, apart from the fact that he used to own a bounch of ADATs back in the day....again...we'll see.
Thanks......................Joaquin.

[oneass]

Originally Posted by joaquin

I'll just ask the AE in charge of the Live Mix to lower a bit the input...

Ouch! I wouldn't recommend that - I've tried it, and in order to do this without overloading the convertors, the AE will have to set the gains REALLY low (unless the direct-outs have seperate send-levels), and you will have to constantly watch the meters (and interrupt the soundguy every 3 minutes 'cause the signal's too hot again...).

And by the way:

Originally Posted by joaquin

all balanced and at 48Khz

That's not true: the ADAT has unbalanced RCA inputs....

[alphajerk]

ADAT is balanced via ELCO, unbalanced through RCA [of which will DEFINATELY overload].. and dont expect the FOH guy to lower his gainstaging unless you want an arguement.... been there. bring pads or some other type trim devices.

also, im pretty sure most direct outs run post everything so anything they also change in the course of the night will be reflected in the direct outs. i havent personally come across a board that were pre-everything.... the only way i have gotten that signal was the tip of the insert trick. no i take that back, the FOH board at 930 club in DC the direct outs could be assigned to a aux send pre everything.... wait, i dont think even that was, but the level send was adjustable via the auxes i know for sure.

best things would be to run a snake to the stage and mic up specific things to your rig/preamps and pull other things from the house.

[alphajerk]

fwiw, the most control i have when doing live shows at FOH is to run FOH as well as record... its a lot of things to keep track of but is set up the way you want it, including what is fed to the room

[tomhaelvoet]

if you have some time left you could fix yourself a mic-splitter and take the mackie with you. 16 balanced Y-cables should be fine - or maybe you could ask the engineer if they do have a splitter (eg. for their stagemixer)

good luck tomorrow

[Berolzheimer]

If you're connecting directly into the existing PA , but not through an Xformer iso/splitter, be on the lookout for ground loops. You'll probably want to make sure your stuff is all connected down to one plug, which is then plugged into the same outlet as the FOH mixer. You may still then have to play around with lifting some or al of your system.

[joaquin]

Hey, Thanks to everybody. Lots of good advice.

Originally Posted by oneass

That's not true: the ADAT has unbalanced RCA inputs....

...You are right.

Originally Posted by Alphajerk

bring pads or some other type trim devices

I'd love to, but I don't have any at the moment. I'm wondering if I can take my Mackie mixer and send the line input (from the FHO mixer) to the auxiliary sends and efx sends...that way I'd have some control over the levels...only 4 channels tough.

Originally Posted by Alphajerk

also, im pretty sure most direct outs run post everything

...I still have to check on that...not sure yet

Originally Posted by tomhaelvoet

if you have some time left you could fix yourself a mic-splitter and take the mackie with you. 16 balanced Y-cables should be fine - or maybe you could ask the engineer if they do have a splitter (eg. for their stagemixer)

...thanks for the suggestion. I thought of that, but the FOH AE was pretty clear in that the only thing that I was to bring was a 1/4 TRS...I'll try to contact him again but do not want to be a pain in the butt. Tomorrow, I'll hit the club pretty early and start trying things out. There's going to be a sound check way ahead of the show, so I'll have some time to figure things out.

Originally Posted by Berolzheimer

If you're connecting directly into the existing PA , but not through an Xformer iso/splitter, be on the lookout for ground loops. You'll probably want to make sure your stuff is all connected down to one plug, which is then plugged into the same outlet as the FOH mixer. You may still then have to play around with lifting some or al of your system.

Thanks for the advice!! I already have the 002, ADAT, Mackie, laptop, and HD, all pluged into a Power conditioner and racked all together. I'll bring an extension and look for my best shot...Thanks to everybody again.........................Joaquin.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by joaquin

I'm wondering if I can take my Mackie mixer and send the line input (from the FHO mixer) to the auxiliary sends and efx sends...that way I'd have some control over the levels...only 4 channels tough...

Just realize that I have four dedicated outputs for the sub-groups 1-2, 3-4. That should give me the 8 level controlled outputs that I need!!


edited 5/26/05 at 6:26PM
I have this question: Since I'm going to need another TRS to TRS snake in order to get from the FHO mixer to the Mackie, and the only extra one I have, has TRS plugs in one end and 2 TS(TIP, RING) per TRS on the other end; If I use only the Tip of the TRS, comming out of the balanced direct out of the FOH Mixer, to my "TIP" TS in to the mackie, am I going to have any phase issues respect to the tracks that are arriving balanced to the 002, or any other phase problems that I should be aware of?... since I'll be using just the "positive" part of the balanced signal...am I just creating a problem where there should be none?...thanks for your patience, is just that I'm pretty sure I heard about phase issues related to a similar situation.
Thanks............................Joaquin.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by Joaquin

I have this question: Since I'm going to need another TRS to TRS snake in order to get from the FHO mixer to the Mackie, and the only extra one I have, has TRS plugs in one end and 2 TS(TIP, RING) per TRS on the other end; If I use only the Tip of the TRS, comming out of the balanced direct out of the FOH Mixer, to my "TIP" TS in to the mackie, am I going to have any phase issues respect to the tracks that are arriving balanced to the 002, or any other phase problems that I should be aware of?... since I'll be using just the "positive" part of the balanced signal...am I just creating a problem where there should be none?...thanks for your patience, is just that I'm pretty sure I heard about phase issues related to a similar situation.
Thanks............................Joaquin.

...well, unless I'm wrong in the basics, the only problem that I may have is the extra posible noise added to the signal....I mean, there's only one signal wich is inverted at the input of the cable and then inverted again at the end in order to cancel any extraneous noise that may had picked up in it way tours it's destination!? Thanks for any light in the matter.............Joaquin.

[rainsinvelvet]

Just a thought about grabbing a board mix and adding room mics.
I've noticed that mosts of the board mixes I've recorded allways have a ton of vox and a little bit of guitar, but lack all of the loud stage instruments. If your going to pull a few sub groups from the console be aware that those signals will be at the mercy of the sound guy riding faders,ect.
Just make sure you have some nicely placed room mics to pick up all the rock'n roll ness that won't be pumping through the PA. ( this is also dependent on the size of the venue of course)


ERic

[Remoteness]

Remember, you're board feed is only as good as the engineer that's feeding it to you. Even if you have a great FOH mixer, you still are dealing with balance issues.

Just like Eric mentioned -- the board mix almost always will have a ton of vocals. And, if you're in Long Island NY, you'll also find a lot of kick & snare in the mix. That's the "Long Island Engineer" sound -- vocals, kick & snare. There's no need for anything else in the mix, especially on ballads and such.

It's not perfect but, if you must take a board feed make sure you take it from their matrix mix output. Then you can adjust the mix to the record side until it's right. Add in the nicely placed room mics and you're good to go.

With this all said, bring your own mixer or pres, go with a split of the mics at FOH and be done with it. But, that's my opinion.

I hope this helped.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by joaquin

...tomhaelvoet, I tried the inputs on the ADAT with a +4dbu out and you were right...they are too hot. I'm thinking that instead of adding more circuitry and noise, I'll just ask the AE in charge of the Live Mix to lower a bit the input...we'll see. I know the Guy and he's really good, apart from the fact that he used to own a bounch of ADATs back in the day....again...we'll see.
Thanks......................Joaquin.

Run the FOH desk where it sounds best and use line level inline pads. They make -10 dB, -20 dB, etc. Insert them in between the direct output of the FOH desk and your recorder.

[joaquin]

Hello everybody!! The show went well. I got there early, so I had time to hookup everything with enough light and Time...precious aspects for this type of production!! I end up using 2 snakes of TRS, 12 channels direct from the console...8 direct to protools, and 4 (2 Vocals and 2 FOH master output) going in to the mackie and from there to the ADAT thru auxs, EFX sends and busses. I got all my levels within a safe range...apart from one or two outbursts from the FHO AE......Alpajerk...you were absolutely right!! All those directs were post fader and everything in between
Apart from those 12 channels, I put a stereo pair of SDC in a X/Y Fashion on top of the audience at the back of the room in the FHO position, and also a LDC at around a feet from the floor at the same position...did no have many options for placement, since the place was crowded and did not have long enough XLRs. The Idea with the low Mic, was to get sort of the Low Frequency content coming out of the House System...we'll see.
I still have not hear yesterday's achivements, for I'm quite tired still to go and hookup all the Gear...will do tonight though. Men...that place was loud!! by the end, wrapping up all by my self, after around 5 hours of the noisiest shit ever...thought I was going to loose it!! I always wear my trusty earplugs, but their capsule effect, plus a couple of beers and all the tension safeguarding the Gear....Fhiuuu...I'll think about this twice nex time.
Any way, thanks for all the replies and Help...I'll start getting the appropiate pieces for much better and controlled experiences in the future. I'll post later to let you know what did I find in those files...
Thank................Joaquin.

[alphajerk]

live shows are LOADS of fun, beats tracking in the studio anyday cause they HAVE to perform, and you get warts and all [something terribly missing from modern productions]

anyway, let us know how it turned out.

[joaquin]

Hi!! Just checked the Tracks, and lots of good stuff!! Performance wise, there's a couple of songs that the band ROCKS!! and my tracks, as I expected, have some Shite in them, but mostly are in very good shape!! The stereo pair room mics worked very good, and the Low condensor adds lots of basy content to the space...I'm very happy with the three of them. I'm going to wait and see wich songs the band selects to put the video together, so I can start cleaning them...I have lots of info, and some Protoolization to run.
I must say that I'm very happy, for, whatever happens afterwards, and even though it was a bit of a stressful task, I helped capturing a unique live performance!!
Once again thanks for your help and support.............Joaquin.
PS. I'll try to post an MP3 once something is done.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally Posted by joaquin

Hi!! Just checked the Tracks, and lots of good stuff!! Performance wise, there's a couple of songs that the band ROCKS!! and my tracks, as I expected, have some Shite in them, but mostly are in very good shape!! The stereo pair room mics worked very good, and the Low condensor adds lots of basy content to the space...I'm very happy with the three of them. I'm going to wait and see wich songs the band selects to put the video together, so I can start cleaning them...I have lots of info, and some Protoolization to run.
I must say that I'm very happy, for, whatever happens afterwards, and even though it was a bit of a stressful task, I helped capturing a unique live performance!!
Once again thanks for your help and support.............Joaquin.
PS. I'll try to post an MP3 once something is done.

Congratulations!

[Remoteness]

Excellent news!

Question: Why did you expect to have problems with your tracks? Nevertheless, I'm happy to hear the tracks were mostly in good shape.

Can you explain why you expected them to have "Shite" on them? Also, could you have done something about it before hand?

I'm happy to hear that the Remote Possibilities Forum was able to help and support your live recording situation. It's the Internet awesome!

[joaquin]

Hey, Thanks Ted, Alpha and Steve!!
Indeed Internete is a wonder!!...but more important is the people behind this forum

Originally Posted by Remote

Can you explain why you expected them to have "Shite" on them? Also, could you have done something about it before hand?

Well, first, From the starting point that I wasn't setting the Mics on stage, nor setting the gain stage for the pres, and the absolute randomness involved in a live situation, for wich there wasn't any sound check to begin with
Also, I used to play 3 -4 nights a week in this beloved city, and sometimes thing may get really F%$#&. Miami do not have an strong rock culture and even tough this was a big and relatively new venue, the console was an euro-desk, for wich I don't doubt their quality, but from the moment I plug in to it, I recived a lot of noise and Track leakage?!...when I could a a bit of another channel's signal in to a muted one...? Also, like I said before, the direct signal coming from the console, had absolutely all manipulation from the FHO AE going in to my recorder...so, a couple of un-welcome mutes, and outbursts ...since the AE knew the band, so he got carried away trying to emphasise certain passages. Also he used Gates for the Kick and Snare...wich are pretty ugly!! Any way, like I posted before, my mics are going to be good help in re-constructing the picture, and also The guitars and Vocals came out pretty good...Also, like I said before, There are a couple of songs that are right there performance wise, and I'm pretty sure I have all the elements to re-create a good rendition of it. I still have to go over the session with time...Today was a Family day...and tomorrow I have to record for this TV program with a guy who sees the future!?...we'll see
Any way, Thanks one more time, and as I said, I'll try to post a song once every thing fall in to place...............................Joaquin.

[Remoteness]

Thanks Joaquin,

That explains it perfectly.

I also want to thank tomhaelvoet, oneass, Berolzheimer and rainsinvelvet for their input.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I also want to thank tomhaelvoet, oneass, Berolzheimer and rainsinvelvet for their input.

Absolutely....I'm sorry if that wasn't reflexed in my previous post....Thanks.

[jabney]

hi joaquin,

you said: "tomorrow I have to record for this TV program with a guy who sees the future!?...we'll see"

So, what'd he say? Any predictions about the future of music?

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by jabney

hi joaquin,

you said: "tomorrow I have to record for this TV program with a guy who sees the future!?...we'll see"

So, what'd he say? Any predictions about the future of music?

...Men, I didn't think of asking about that!!...If I work with him again next month...I'll remember and get some inside Future Info!?
I only remember, that if you are a Scorpio....tube compression and limiting is good Karma this week... they will get you to new and higher levels..
Libra...don't let the plugins fool you...don't be afraid and deal with the real thing!!
Leo...you are strong and determined...move those mics around...command those phase issues...don't let the client's pressure leave you with unfinished bussines!!
.....................................Joaquin.

[Hugo C.]

Originally Posted by joaquin

...and tomorrow I have to record for this TV program with a guy who sees the future!?...we'll see
Any way, Thanks one more time, and as I said, I'll try to post a song once every thing fall in to place...............................Joaquin.

Is that Walter Mercado you are speaking of???

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by Hugo C.

Is that Walter Mercado you are speaking of???

Yes, indeed it was.
Cheers.........Joaquin.